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Bolt has FWD and Model 3 does not.

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Vitold, Apr 1, 2016.

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  1. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    I disagree. Even with traction control RWD cars are a lot more twitchy in snow/ice. Goofing around in a loaner P85 I had no problem slipping out the rear end, and once it's gone, all off the traction control or ABS in the world won't make it come back. That's simply not true on a FWD car. And my AWD P85D is vastly better than the P85 was. Anybody who says that there is no difference doesn't spend 4-5 months per year driving on snow/ice.
     
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  2. cokata

    cokata Member

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    As was said earlier a lift off oversteer (a problem that occurs mostly with front heavy cars) is much more dangerous than power induced oversteer from a RWD. It is also counter intuitive as i drive a FWD car in the winter in a corner you should never slow down to prevent nose dive which unloads the rear tires which have poor grip to begin with. RWD is just much better in every single way, it's not even close
     
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  3. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    I don't know how much winter you get in your area of Bulgaria, but I can assure you that you are mistaken. Once you've lost traction in a RWD vehicle your options are very limited... ease off of the gas, steer and hope. With FWD you always retain some degree of directional control because you apply a thrust vector in any direction.
     
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  4. Caligula

    Caligula Member

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    This is literally the first time I've seen someone complain about not having FWD.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. cokata

    cokata Member

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    We get plenty of snow here. Power oversteer is very easy to manage, you just can't expect to slam the accelerator and catch the car. A FWD car will just understeer if you do that while a RWD will spin, but you should never really stomp on the accelerator.

    All new cars have ESP + Traction control so you really have to force a slide. Ask anyone who has driven both FWD and RWD drive cars of the same calibre and i will be shocked if you find more than 10% of the people to prefer FWD.
     
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  6. Vitold

    Vitold Active Member

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    I agree. But this does not happen
    I don't think anyone here says that RWD is a liability only that FWD is naturally easier to handle. So far the best argument for RWD I read is that electronic traction control combined with electric motor will not let the car fishtail. Another plus for RWD is lack of torque steer which I'd image would be huge with Tesla's power.
     
  7. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    Well there is this guy that said RWD would put you in a ditch:

    Oh Wait, that was you. ;)
     
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  8. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    This is wrong, almost backwards.

    Several of us have mentioned the Lift off oversteer problem of FWD. It's far more dangerous than power on oversteer of RWD.

    You mentioned a couple of times that you were Goofing around in RWD making the rear end slide. You are initiating this by driving like an idiot. Heavy throttle while turning. Easy to avoid this, don't drive like an idiot.

    With FWD, you get lift off oversteer. This is dangerous because it gets when you are trying to do the safe thing: Slow down. I related this a bit before, but as I said, this was the only time I ever put a car in the ditch.

    In more detail I was driving on a trip and conditions were getting worse, and I kept slowing down, at one point I could feel the rear end getting loose and decided to slow even more but when I took my foot off the gas, the car did a 180, and sent me backwards across the opposing lane (lucky no cars coming the opposite direction), and ended up in the snow ditch on the opposite side of the road.

    The worse thing is FWD-Lift off-oversteer is hard to play with and get used to, the way you can play with RWD oversteer. When it hits it takes you by surprise, and it is nearly impossible to recover from.

    RWD oversteer - caused by goofing around/too much throttle, easy to avoid (don't use too much throttle), easy to correct, back off on throttle, steer into it.
    FWD oversteer - caused by trying to be safe/slowing down, hard to avoid because slowing down makes sense in adverse conditions. When it hits, you are pretty much screwed, because you were already doing the safe thing slow down.
     
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  9. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    Right... and smoking is fine if you don't inhale. People get in accidents because they do DUMB THINGS.... accidentally. RWD behaves badly when you do dumb things. FWD is not idiot proof either, but it generally behaves better when you do do dumb things.

    I would give a new driver a FWD over a RWD 10 times out of 10. A good/experienced driver who has an intuitive sense of the physics will compensate for the shortcomings of either. But, not everybody out there is like that. There are a lot of folks who drive in climates that see ice/snow only occasionally and so don't develop the muscle memory to respond quickly to something unexpected. And there are some who just don't get the mechanics and never will. For those folks, FWD is safer... for sure. Less fun perhaps, but safer.
     
  10. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    I think you'll get more insight if you also ask WHY they would prefer it. RWD is admittedly much more fun on a performance car. And in good driving conditions, with reasonable behaviour they're both safe. But after 30 years of driving all sorts of cars & trucks in a very wintery climate, you will never convince me that RWD is a safe as FWD in ice & snow.
     
  11. cokata

    cokata Member

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    It looks like no one can convince you. Thankfully you are in the minority.
     
  12. Vitold

    Vitold Active Member

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    Have you heard of the phrase "tyranny of the masses"? ;) Translated it means majority is not always right.
     
  13. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    Still ignoring that FWD can cause accidents even when you do sensible things(slow down in slippery snow). That is what makes it all the more dangerous.

    It is also MUCH harder and more counter-intuitive (thus even more dangerous for a novice) to recover if you do lose the back end.
     
  14. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Still have not seen a reason explaining why the two wheel drive vehicles most dependent upon excellent traction, dragsters, are not FWD. If FWD gave you better traction than RWD you can bet the people spending hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to get maximum traction would be using FWD. They don't.
    Also, as I said earlier, the most unpredictable vehicle I've ever driven in the snow was FWD.
     
  15. Snow Drift

    Snow Drift Slip Start: [Activated]

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    #75 Snow Drift, Apr 3, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
    It's more efficient to push from behind and let the front wheels steer. Do you pull a shopping cart?

    RWD > FWD

    In a front engined ICE during snow driving, FWD only gets better traction because the engine weight pushes down on the front wheels. It is also easy to overwhelm the front tires in a higher torque car as the tire contact patch attempts to grip and turn simultaneously. If a FWD loses traction you plow forward with the front end and hit the tree head-on.

    Front engined RWD cars have a lighter rear end (less weight pushing down) so the back end can kick out easier (fishtail, drift, etc). For the untrained this can be very dangerous. "Snap oversteer." You let off the throttle, weight transfers forward, the rear lifts, and you spin - hitting the tree with the rear end.

    Front engined AWD takes the benefits and limitations of both FWD and RWD to make a fairly balanced ride. Added grip up front, yet the ability to rotate the rear, performance oriented torque split to reduce front tire fatigue and added push from the rear. Yes, you add weight and complexity, but that is far outweighed by the benefits. I'm a three time Subaru WRX owner, so I'm biased.

    Just buy the Dual Motor if you live where it rains, snows or has dirt/sand. (So everywhere).

    ***Use snow tires. AWD, RWD or FWD. No excuses.***
     
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  16. cokata

    cokata Member

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    I will just say that if right now every car company begins to make bespoke electric cars, there won't be many FWD cars on the market.
     
  17. miatadan

    miatadan Member

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  18. miatadan

    miatadan Member

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    As far as winter driving goes, having winter tires more important than either FWD or RWD...

    For those who say RWD not safe in winter? Guess you feel that in the 1920s to late 1970s when 95% cars, trucks etc all RWD no body drove in winter? Tires were a lot worse than now but people went to work every day, drove though storms and survived.

    Ever car I owned has been RWD since I had my drivers license except 1 car - all ford mustangs or mazda miatas and I driven them in winter.

    Dan
     
  19. timk225

    timk225 Active Member

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    #79 timk225, Apr 3, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
    Any competent driver (like me) has no need of FWD or RWD for snow driving. I drove old 1970's Mopar RWD cars in the snow for many years. If you understand the physics involved and don't drive like an idiot, you'll be fine. I once had a 1971 Plymouth Valiant from 1998-2004. With a rebuilt limited slip differential and a decent set of winter treads, that thing would go almost anywhere in the snow.

    Anyone who "needs" FWD to drive in snow is the problem. Not the car or drivetrain layout itself. FWD came out as a sales gimmick in the early 80's, by American car manufacturers trying to copy European cars to get an edge in sales.

    I've seen many soccer moms blasting down wet and snowy roads at crazy speeds because the car salesman told them their 4WD SUV could do that, and I've seen lots of SUVs in the ditch because of it.

    The REAL problem is this whole noise, vibration, harshness crusade that car manufacturers have been on for the last 20 years. In the name of comfort and ease of operation, car makers want you to be able to drive without hearing the engine or feeling even the slightest bump.

    Even the Tesla has problems like this. Some see the back up camera and auto-park features as helpful, but all it is really doing is make people forget how to drive. Anyone with half a brain can operate a car, but to really get into it, to really DRIVE, that takes some skill.
     
  20. sandpiper

    sandpiper Active Member

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    Because dragsters go in a straight line. RWD is undeniably better in situations like that.
     

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