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May 19, 2017
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The Boring Company’s proposed loop system serving D.C.-Maryland has completed an environmental assessment that helps bring the project closer to reality. The milestone was announced Wednesday by the U.S. Department of Transportation. The release coincides with the launch of DOT’s new Non-Traditional and Emerging Transportation Technology (NETT) Council, an internal deliberative body created to identify...
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neroden

Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan
Apr 25, 2011
14,676
63,885
Ithaca, NY, USA
Or, y'know, they could put railroad tracks in it, put trains in it, and carry 6000 people / hour :eyeroll:

Musk has got some sort of blind spot problem with trains.
 
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jrjong

New Member
May 27, 2020
4
0
Boston, MA
The Boring Company’s proposed loop system serving D.C.-Maryland has completed an environmental assessment that helps bring the project closer to reality. The roadrunner email login milestone was announced Wednesday by the U.S. Department of Transportation. The release coincides with the launch of DOT’s new Non-Traditional and Emerging Transportation Technology (NETT) Council, an internal deliberative body created to identify...
[WPURI="https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/2019/04/18/boring-company-completes-environmental-assessment-east-coast-tunnel/"]READ FULL ARTICLE[/WPURI]

Any more info on this??
 

MD-2000

Member
May 1, 2019
603
412
Winnipeg
I think the long term plan is that you travel in a "pod" like an elevator, and it takes you directly from start to destination. You bypass all the other stations at high speed - far more efficient and faster. Also, it avoids the energy spent stopping and starting a large train frequently. Computer traffic control allows seamless merges from stations. This concept, of course, performs best with a large number of custom destinations; a single point-to-point will always be better served by a big shuttle train. Plus, the initial carriers could be Model 3 - mass produced, as opposed to rail coaches custom built in lots; and in future when there are multiple loops all over the country, Tesla could start a manufacture line line for larger, roomier specifically designed people carriers using the same base technology. These can be trickled into existing installations without disrupting the existing setup.
 

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,780
22,251
San Diego
I think the long term plan is that you travel in a "pod" like an elevator, and it takes you directly from start to destination. You bypass all the other stations at high speed - far more efficient and faster. Also, it avoids the energy spent stopping and starting a large train frequently. Computer traffic control allows seamless merges from stations. This concept, of course, performs best with a large number of custom destinations; a single point-to-point will always be better served by a big shuttle train. Plus, the initial carriers could be Model 3 - mass produced, as opposed to rail coaches custom built in lots; and in future when there are multiple loops all over the country, Tesla could start a manufacture line line for larger, roomier specifically designed people carriers using the same base technology. These can be trickled into existing installations without disrupting the existing setup.

Yes, you've captured why this is a great concept. Individual mass produced pods are far cheaper and delivers a much better transit experience. I don't they'll ever need to go towards larger vehicles. The Vegas three stop initial system was too small to properly showcase what Loop is capable of. If you look at the larger Las Vegas strip system which includes loop backs for express transport, then it all starts to make sense.
 

RDoc

S85D
Aug 24, 2012
2,755
1,706
Boston North Shore
I disagree on larger specially build vehicles. I think they'll have to for several reasons.

As the distances increase, the time spent at high speed will also increase which means the range between charges will go down a lot. At 150 mph a long range model 3 has a range around 80 miles, an S around 100. My guess is they'll go to specialized vehicles with some kind of moving charging/power such as an overhead catenary like system in the tunnels with relatively small batteries for moving the vehicles around in the stations etc.

In urban environments with very high passenger throughput requirements the low passenger density and slow loading/unloading for normal cars will be a big problem. Being able to walk into a vehicle with a few packages or while in a wheelchair or with a bike is a very big advantage of specially build vehicles. Because of the accelerations I think people will have to be seated though.

How many passengers is an interesting question because of the point to point nature of Loop routing for general routes with many branches and stops. Even with 4 people in a normal car, the problem is still there, but if the number of seats goes to 16 or so, that's going to be tricky in many cases. There's going to have to be some kind of passenger matching scheme so people going to more or less the same destinations ride together. Perhaps cities will have a couple of different sized vehicles for rush hour and normal travel times.

The capital and O&M cost per usable seat I'd expect to be much higher for normal passenger vehicles than larger dedicated transit vehicles, especially if the transit vehicles use much smaller battery capacity per person as I expect they will. Certainly volume production helps, but if Loop really works and can be installed for a reasonable price, the number of vehicles needed will be pretty big and worth setting up a factory for. Related to this is the need for much higher reliability and life in transit vehicles so the design will likely have to be different.
 
B

banned-66611

Guest
I think the long term plan is that you travel in a "pod" like an elevator, and it takes you directly from start to destination. You bypass all the other stations at high speed - far more efficient and faster. Also, it avoids the energy spent stopping and starting a large train frequently. Computer traffic control allows seamless merges from stations. This concept, of course, performs best with a large number of custom destinations; a single point-to-point will always be better served by a big shuttle train. Plus, the initial carriers could be Model 3 - mass produced, as opposed to rail coaches custom built in lots; and in future when there are multiple loops all over the country, Tesla could start a manufacture line line for larger, roomier specifically designed people carriers using the same base technology. These can be trickled into existing installations without disrupting the existing setup.

Model 3 would probably run afoul of disabled access rules. It's a very small, low car and not easy for people with reduced mobility to get into, let alone wheelchairs.
 
B

banned-66611

Guest
Yes, you've captured why this is a great concept. Individual mass produced pods are far cheaper and delivers a much better transit experience. I don't they'll ever need to go towards larger vehicles. The Vegas three stop initial system was too small to properly showcase what Loop is capable of. If you look at the larger Las Vegas strip system which includes loop backs for express transport, then it all starts to make sense.

Why would pods be cheaper than carriages? You need more of them for the same capacity, they require duplicating all the hardware, and carriages are mass produced anyway.
 
B

banned-66611

Guest
Research it. Carriages are not mass produced.

They are mass produced on rolling assembly lines, like cars. How do you think China built 3000 high speed train sets so fast? That's sets, consisting of multiple carriages each, i.e. tens of thousands of individual cars.

I'm struggling to find exact stats but Japan builds thousands of sets too. The 700 series alone was 1,328 individual vehicles, a few hundred a year during production.

Sub components are even more highly mass produced, like bogie sets.

When new vehicles are not needed the production lines refit old ones. Being public transport they need regular refits, or at least they do in Japan where they don't want them looking tatty.
 

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,780
22,251
San Diego
They are mass produced on rolling assembly lines, like cars. How do you think China built 3000 high speed train sets so fast? That's sets, consisting of multiple carriages each, i.e. tens of thousands of individual cars.

I'm struggling to find exact stats but Japan builds thousands of sets too. The 700 series alone was 1,328 individual vehicles, a few hundred a year during production.

Sub components are even more highly mass produced, like bogie sets.

When new vehicles are not needed the production lines refit old ones. Being public transport they need regular refits, or at least they do in Japan where they don't want them looking tatty.

Is there anything we agree on? They aren't as mass produced as cars are. Quite a difference in scale. A few hundred per year is nothing in comparison to 500,000 per year. Especially in the US which doesn't have the same scale of mass transit as other parts of the world (cherry picking Japan isn't fair).

My bottom line is that Boring's use of truly mass produced vehicles is a great idea economically as well as for passenger utility. Loop is not the same as a subway system. Loop CANNOT use large trains. It is meant to use small vehicles since it is an expressway system where each vehicle goes directly from source to destination without going through intervening stations and transfer points (there are no transfer points).
 
B

banned-66611

Guest
Is there anything we agree on? They aren't as mass produced as cars are. Quite a difference in scale. A few hundred per year is nothing in comparison to 500,000 per year. Especially in the US which doesn't have the same scale of mass transit as other parts of the world (cherry picking Japan isn't fair).

My bottom line is that Boring's use of truly mass produced vehicles is a great idea economically as well as for passenger utility. Loop is not the same as a subway system. Loop CANNOT use large trains. It is meant to use small vehicles since it is an expressway system where each vehicle goes directly from source to destination without going through intervening stations and transfer points (there are no transfer points).

Tesla won't make 500,000 of them a year though, they will make far fewer than they do make for HSR in fact. Yeah the shell looks like a normal car but it's not. It will have to be adapted for public use for a start, more durable materials and easier access. Sits on a sled. No normal car controls or drivetrain. No battery presumably unless they plan on rotating them in and out as they need charging.

I'm still expecting the passenger loading/unloading in those things to be a disaster.
 

Cosmacelf

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2013
8,780
22,251
San Diego
Tesla won't make 500,000 of them a year though, they will make far fewer than they do make for HSR in fact. Yeah the shell looks like a normal car but it's not. It will have to be adapted for public use for a start, more durable materials and easier access. Sits on a sled. No normal car controls or drivetrain. No battery presumably unless they plan on rotating them in and out as they need charging.

I'm still expecting the passenger loading/unloading in those things to be a disaster.

Loop will use standard Tesla cars with custom autopilot software.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,924
8,625
Maine
Loop will use standard Tesla cars with custom autopilot software.

Yes, the sled was just part of the original spiel, because it shown as a generic system which would allow any vehicle in.

Now that they're trying to do real work, the sled and elevators have disappeared and it's just Teslas in concrete tunnels with ingress and egress using ramps.

The real meat of the idea is to have a company dedicated to making tunneling as cheap and fast as possible. There's a path for Boring because the USA currently does transit at high cost and slowly, so it should have opportunities just by trying to be efficient.

I don't think they'll have much of a problem with people getting into and out of the cars. People know how to do that.
 

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