Boring Company Selected to Build O’Hare Express in Chicago.

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

8 rows (one off to right of shot) of 6 skates, so got to find the skate which is "my ride" within that lot. Its like my partner leaving the car in the car park and just handing me the keys - except Tesla APP will find it, and I can flash lights / honk horn when I get close ... except, also, that that's above ground and my phone has GPS. Takes up a lot of space, underground, for that "station" too. The last of those 48 cars won't be leaving for 24 minutes either ...

I would have thought a series of numbered bus stops, by the curb, and a vehicle comes to you would be less walking / hunting. I love the whole "express to destination" design, but I'm struggling with how Tesla groups 16 riders into a group to fill a skate to capacity, as often as possible. I suppose making a couple of stops en route is fine, so perhaps the 16 only have to be travelling in the same general direction.

Maybe just have skates identified as going to each terminal station / route, like a bus, in which case you just need one "bus stop" per route, and when 16 people have got into it, or when the first passenger has been waiting long enough, off it goes

Pre-booking a skate, and turning up a couple of minutes late, would be a nuisance/delay for fellow travellers, so presumably it will be "skate provided when you arrive", or book a skate but then use my phone APP to detect when I have got into the elevator and started descending, and then start figuring out which skate has capacity, and is nearby, and will be my ride. More of an issue when embarking at intermediate stations than terminus.

I wonder if key buildings in big cities will be vying (paying even?) for a station under their building, reached by an elevator from within their building? Maybe every skyscraper in the street will have a station/elevator?

Chicago - O'Hare is the same distance as Heathrow-London (Paddington) [16 miles] and the Heathrow Express trains are capable of 100 MPH but still take 16 minutes to make the journey, whereas Tesla is talking about 25% less time

That's just an impression and you know that impressions will always make it look better than it is. Look at how it's not very crowded, and is in a cavernous space.

The actual set-up would have less space, but an arrangement like that would be fine. The system would direct you to a car and there'd be plenty of signage.

 

[mongo]

I’m a bit confused by this venture. Why build an underground tunnel to only have a capacity of a little more than 1000 passengers per hour? Modern metros can be anywhere up to are 30-40k in each direction and are not really that much slower over these short distances. A handful of 767s landing per hour and passengers spilling onto the Boring Line and it will be full. What makes this better than a train?

Secondly, in the European market one of the biggest costs of underground tunnelling for mass transit is the need for escape / service shafts every 500m-1000m. What’s proposed here? You’ll see on YouTube a great docco all about London’s Crossrail project and the pains they’ve taken to prevent surface structures being affected by the tunnelling below. This needed countless vertical shafts to be dug in the city centre so grouting could be injected into the ground. All of this needs complicated and expensive work sites in the middle of the city. Is the difference all in Chicago’s geology? Safety regs? What am I missing?

The initial tunnel is O'Hare to Chicago. Not everyone flying though O'Hare is going to the windy city (but more might if it was a known and short time to/from). Longer term, the tunnel section will also sevre other destinations. It is going to be faster than the current Blue Line and is winter proof, that makes it better (along with future expansion).

Ventilation and safety requirements can be much less when there are no internal combustion engines being used. For example, how many vents/ surface escape tunnels does the Chunnel have?

The TBM is doing the exterior grout injection as the tunnel is created, so there is no ground displacement. No need for shafts to do that (geology permitting, a vein of loose material may require firming up before drilling).

 

[tomas]

8 rows (one off to right of shot) of 6 skates, so got to find the skate which is "my ride" within that lot. Its like my partner leaving the car in the car park and just handing me the keys - except Tesla APP will find it, and I can flash lights / honk horn when I get close ... except, also, that that's above ground and my phone has GPS. Takes up a lot of space, underground, for that "station" too. The last of those 48 cars won't be leaving for 24 minutes either ...

I would have thought a series of numbered bus stops, by the curb, and a vehicle comes to you would be less walking / hunting. I love the whole "express to destination" design, but I'm struggling with how Tesla groups 16 riders into a group to fill a skate to capacity, as often as possible. I suppose making a couple of stops en route is fine, so perhaps the 16 only have to be travelling in the same general direction.

Maybe just have skates identified as going to each terminal station / route, like a bus, in which case you just need one "bus stop" per route, and when 16 people have got into it, or when the first passenger has been waiting long enough, off it goes

Pre-booking a skate, and turning up a couple of minutes late, would be a nuisance/delay for fellow travellers, so presumably it will be "skate provided when you arrive", or book a skate but then use my phone APP to detect when I have got into the elevator and started descending, and then start figuring out which skate has capacity, and is nearby, and will be my ride. More of an issue when embarking at intermediate stations than terminus.

I wonder if key buildings in big cities will be vying (paying even?) for a station under their building, reached by an elevator from within their building? Maybe every skyscraper in the street will have a station/elevator?

Chicago - O'Hare is the same distance as Heathrow-London (Paddington) [16 miles] and the Heathrow Express trains are capable of 100 MPH but still take 16 minutes to make the journey, whereas Tesla is talking about 25% less time

Did you even read the article????

 

[mongo]

Pulling from Market Action
@Dan Detweiler

Question is do they even need batteries? They just might go with standard electrified train/tram system and get power from lines above / tracks.

Batteries eliminate the need for power rails along with associated cost/ safety/ power switching, contact wear and arcing. Also makes HVAC, propulsion, and lighting independent from the grid.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Pulling from Market Action
@Dan Detweiler


Batteries eliminate the need for power rails along with associated cost/ safety/ power switching, contact wear and arcing. Also makes HVAC, propulsion, and lighting independent from the grid.

There you go! Batteries it is I guess.

Dan

 

[mongo]

There you go! Batteries it is I guess.

Dan

I'm sure Boring would not mind the factory seconds or returned packs from Tesla... Could call it recycling

 

[brkaus]

They can also have a seperate lane (or terminal) for “limo” private sled service.

 

[mongo]

Pulling from Market Action

If I were them I wouldn't use batteries for the pods. They have contact with metallic rails, so should be able to electrify the track like a typical subway. I think that would be much cheaper than putting batteries in each pod...and you would have less maintenance, wouldn't have to deal with recharging/degredation, etc.

@jeewe3000

Skates don't need rails. Inset traction/ wear surface and high durometer wheel are sufficient. Each future station is an on/off ramp. Rails would rewire a set of switched for each.

Subways have extra (3rd) rail for power, extra cost needed. The power is also switched to active sections, more cost/ complexity.

 

[Sean Wagner]

Conventional subways are indeed great for moving really vast amounts of people in a short time.

I think the benefits of finer granularity that these fast autonomous pods [up to 150mph and just right-sized in my opinion] afford isn't sufficiently appreciated.

Flexibility combined with frequency and speed delivers in many scenarios.

The Tesla Model X will provide the proven, battery-powered affordable platform, ride frequency can be high, system expansion is easier, while maintenance and charging and storage all benefit from smaller pods cycling through.

Here's an idea, Elon: build the pods so a lower part containing the drive systems and modular passenger accomodations, and an upper shell are separately stackable with some easy prep. Boom - not only tons of storage space saved, but servicing and refurb made a lot easier.

 

[Peter Thomas]

Batteries and tires are going to require a lot of maintenance versus trains 3rd rail and metal wheels. Tires every 100,000 miles at least and batteries probably every 500,000 miles. This might not seem like a big deal but when you are talking 100s of buses or skates then it starts adding up. Subways trains have a 25-50 year life span compared to 5-10 years for a bus. A train can have tree branches just like a bus. You use what is called a switch to switch the train from one track branch to another so they could go any where that a skate or bus could go. Underground I believe trains or skates with metal wheels and a 3rd rail make more sense. What happens if a skate has a flat tire or if a battery needs to be recharged? Complexity is not always necessarily better. I would rather see a skate with metal wheels on rails with a 3rd rail going from the airport and modern switches used to direct the skate or train to different stations distributed around the city. I agree that we no longer need a central station like Penn station because of the Boring technology, however we don't need to be replacing batteries and tires either.

 

[RubberToe]

Batteries and tires are going to require a lot of maintenance versus trains 3rd rail and metal wheels. Tires every 100,000 miles at least and batteries probably every 500,000 miles. This might not seem like a big deal but when you are talking 100s of buses or skates then it starts adding up. Subways trains have a 25-50 year life span compared to 5-10 years for a bus. A train can have tree branches just like a bus. You use what is called a switch to switch the train from one track branch to another so they could go any where that a skate or bus could go. Underground I believe trains or skates with metal wheels and a 3rd rail make more sense. What happens if a skate has a flat tire or if a battery needs to be recharged? Complexity is not always necessarily better. I would rather see a skate with metal wheels on rails with a 3rd rail going from the airport and modern switches used to direct the skate or train to different stations distributed around the city. I agree that we no longer need a central station like Penn station because of the Boring technology, however we don't need to be replacing batteries and tires either.

Peter,
Tires will wear out, but likely last quite a bit longer that typical car tires. The tunnel surface they will be rolling on will be smooth as silk, no potholes. Acceleration will be automatically controlled, so no 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, same with deceleration.

Tesla has stated they are designing motors to last 1,000,000 miles. Should be a good test when powering these Model X sleds.

Battery chemistry is constantly evolving. Not clear that the batteries will need to be replaced every 500,000 miles. These sleds will not be running with "today's" batteries, but with 2023 batteries. Tesla knows as well as anyone what the battery longevity trajectory looks like, as well as the cost trajectory. So while today's pack life and replacement cost may not pencil out financially, the same calculation on a 2023 pack may very well work out.

Boring Company obviously thought this through.

Having all the power and smarts in the sled saves immeasurable amounts of money versus third rail electrification and signaling. If they can get the tunnel cost down to a reasonable level, we are looking at the dawn of a new technology. Kinda like landing rockets and compelling electric vehicles

RT

 

[Peter Thomas]

Peter,
Tires will wear out, but likely last quite a bit longer that typical car tires. The tunnel surface they will be rolling on will be smooth as silk, no potholes. Acceleration will be automatically controlled, so no 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, same with deceleration.

Tesla has stated they are designing motors to last 1,000,000 miles. Should be a good test when powering these Model X sleds.

Battery chemistry is constantly evolving. Not clear that the batteries will need to be replaced every 500,000 miles. These sleds will not be running with "today's" batteries, but with 2023 batteries. Tesla knows as well as anyone what the battery longevity trajectory looks like, as well as the cost trajectory. So while today's pack life and replacement cost may not pencil out financially, the same calculation on a 2023 pack may very well work out.

Boring Company obviously thought this through.

Having all the power and smarts in the sled saves immeasurable amounts of money versus third rail electrification and signaling. If they can get the tunnel cost down to a reasonable level, we are looking at the dawn of a new technology. Kinda like landing rockets and compelling electric vehicles

RT

Could a 3rd rail be used for charging in certain areas of the tramway where its is safe? That way the batteries are not cycled so deeply and would have a better battery life.

 

[mongo]

Could a 3rd rail be used for charging in certain areas of the tramway where its is safe? That way the batteries are not cycled so deeply and would have a better battery life.

There will need to be a servicing/ maintenance/ buffer plaza in the system. It can also serve as the charging point. Allows for longer charge time at a slower rate that only having charging at the pick up/ drop off points or on the fly.

 

[Peter Thomas]

There will need to be a servicing/ maintenance/ buffer plaza in the system. It can also serve as the charging point. Allows for longer charge time at a slower rate that only having charging at the pick up/ drop off points or on the fly.

Realize that with regenerative breaking, the batteries could still be charges slowly by a 3rd rail leading into stations so that as the pod slows down it is slowly charged. Perhaps super capacitors could buffer some of the charging from the the third rail to allow a more gentle charging of the batteries.

 

[ilovemycoffee]

It will nice to have TSA preclearance before arriving at the airport. I can imagine going through TSA PreCheck, get in your pod, and be delivered to your terminal.

Heck, United could put a Global Service lounge in Chicago for their top tier flyers with a dedicated TSA checkpoint and have the pod delivery them straight to the plane. Lots of ways to make money off of this.

 

[Singer3000]

I dunno. A long train is aerodynamically the most efficient way of moving large numbers of people from one high density area to another. I take a driverless, electric and air conditioned tunneled ride to work every day. I don’t see whats new here. Some of the London lines have a frequency of every 100 seconds but with a capacity of 1,500 per vehicle. This line only manages that capacity per hour.

Maybe this has a role in places that hate public transport but in the rest of the world it looks a dead duck unless and until it goes Hyper Speed. And even then the capacity issue doesn’t go away.

 

[ZsoZso]

So Elon under the Boring company is making a long-term financial bet by footing the bill for the construction and hoping to get a return from the fares. It is unclear to me whether the $1 billion estimate includes the cost of the pods or only the tunnel. Even if we assume that it is total cost including pods and station infrastructure and the whole thing will not run over-budget (big assumptions!), he will need ~50 million rides to pay for it if a ride costs $25 and the operating cost fits within $5 (more assumptions that may not hold). How many years will it take to sell 50 million tickets ?

 

[Singer3000]

Oh and as regards Channel Tunnel and lack of vertical service shafts - yes that’s right. But it has a third tunnel that interlinks with the two operating tunnels for its entire length. And it has airport style security.

Grouting as you tunnel is interesting - maybe the absence of interim stations is what makes this possible?

 

[EinSV]

So Elon under the Boring company is making a long-term financial bet by footing the bill for the construction and hoping to get a return from the fares. It is unclear to me whether the $1 billion estimate includes the cost of the pods or only the tunnel. Even if we assume that it is total cost including pods and station infrastructure and the whole thing will not run over-budget (big assumptions!), he will need ~50 million rides to pay for it if a ride costs $25 and the operating cost fits within $5 (more assumptions that may not hold). How many years will it take to sell 50 million tickets ?

This will basically serve as a proof of concept for a long-term revolution in urban transportation systems, like the Tesla Roadster did for EVs.

If it works well, demand should mushroom in other cities. With the experience of this project under its belt and cost reductions from improved technologies (beat the snail!) the economics should improve drastically for future systems.

Did Tesla make money with the Roadster? I don't think it matters. This is how tech start-ups work.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Pod signage tells destination (no intermediate stops)

I'm doubtful about the no intermediate stops. Tesla will need the highest occupancy they can achieve, and that will mean some skates with passengers going to different drop off points, so for some travellers the skate will stop to allow other people off (and/or to pick up other people)

Not sure whats wrong with a plain old train with ... auto driving [taxi]

For me it would be the time to change transport, wait for next carrier to arrive/leave, time to stop at every station en route, surface traffic (and weather etc.) on the final overground journey-leg

If I visit America I have to drive 2 hours to airport, checkin for 2 hours, fly 6 hours, and then wait for bags and drive an hour or more to destination.The fight was only 50% of the time ...

If I catch a train I have to time my arrival when the train is due (or arrive early and wait), I may well have to change trains - so time to change platforms, and time to wait for the connecting train - plus the onward travel from destination station (which may well be the case for Loop too, but I foresee the possibility of Loop having many more, small, stations)

A handful of 767s landing per hour and passengers spilling onto the Boring Line and it will be full

Current talk is of skates every 30 seconds,but they could travel (as cars do) a couple of seconds apart?

rains/ monorail don't have side tracks for load/unload

That seemed to be common in Japan when I've been there. Minor stations have side tracks and platforms on the outside. All trains travel at same cruising speed, but stopping-trains stop in every station and that is an opportunity for a following express-trains to "overtake" along the central express through-tracks. Major stations have platforms between express through-track and stopping side-track, and a stopping train will already be waiting when Express arrives, so can travel by Express train to main station before destination, cross over platform onto [the already] waiting stopping-train, and then continue to destination station. Don't know if that is common elsewhere in the world, I haven't seen anything like it on British Rail

Not clear that the batteries will need to be replaced every 500,000 miles.

I suppose that even with massive battery degradation the software that manages the whole nine yards could schedule those vehicles to only do "short runs", or only use older batteries for rush hour, to prolong their elapsed-time life.

It will nice to have TSA preclearance before arriving at the airport

We had that at Paddington station (in London) for the Heathrow (airport) Express. It was so little used that the service closed Pity really.

Some of the London lines have a frequency of every 100 seconds but with a capacity of 1,500 per vehicle

Tesla will be 25% faster than London Paddington to Heathrow Airport, which (I believe) is a dedicated track / train. And that's assuming I don't just miss one, which would effectively double my travel time ... if I can be on a Skate with a wait measure in single minutes its going to be a lot more convenient. Maybe the "30 seconds" thing is to manage expectations of wait time, rather than minimum interval between Skates in the tunnel?