The whole "obsolete" term makes me chuckle a bit. Just because something newer came out, all of a sudden you despise what you currently had on order? At the time you ordered, you decided to follow through on ordering because it served your needs/wants and your budget at that time. One would be foolish to think that buying something at anytime would mean that nothing else would come out that's better. That's the nature of not only technology, but in our world in general. We always strive to make things more efficient, faster, lighter, smarter, etc. If you're one of those people who always has to have the latest and greatest, be prepared to spend for it. I'm sure many people would be more than happy or satisfied with an "obsolete" 90D, just like there are many people who are happy with the now discontinued Model X 60D.
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When I worked at Apple I got this ALL the time...
So I'd ask:
Does it still work?
Does it do everything you needed it to yesterday and today?
Not knowing today what you do know now, will it still do everything you need tomorrow?
Then it isn't obsolete. There may be better, there (hopefully) will always be better (eventually).
If they were skeptical, I'd go on about a computer I had for 6 years until it was NOT able to do what I wanted, which then made it obsolete.
I had my previous car for 23 years. I ran that Acura Integra into the ground for 223k miles. I could have gotten a newer one, more tech, more speed, better mileage, etc. When she got sold to be rebuilt into a 'street racer' I was still getting 33 MPG and over 100 MPH out of her, so was she obsolete? Maybe, I did want airbags in a car... but, she did what I wanted for a price I agreed to pay, and was happy for 2 decades.
tl;dr
Point is unhappy <> obsolete
also
better available <> yours obsolete
It matters to some people.
Some people always buy a new iPhone when the new one comes out, never right before the new one appears... With an annual (or bi-annual) refreshment cycle, that is doable.
Buying a Tesla is much harder for such people, because the delivery time is often similar or longer than the current refreshment cycle of the product, so it is very possible - no matter when one buys - the product you get will not be the latest anymore.
The point isn't that something new is coming later. The point is, with Tesla, something new is likely to come out pretty much right after or even before you get your product. That is way different emotionally from something new appearing 6-9 months later...
It matters to a certain portion of the clientele. It does not matter to all. Nor does it matter to me. I am observing a real phenomenon - like here, 90D orderers cancelling or switching to 100D. They don't want to get an "old" thing as their new car.
Either you understand their feelings or you don't, that's fine, but certainly that group of buyers exist.
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You really shouldn't get stuck on words.
You all know what is meant by obsolete in this context. Non-functional is not meant, just that it is not the latest anymore.
Apple upgrades their products on a fairly predictable cycle. One can definitely buy the latest and greatest there and enjoy it quite a while before a new one comes out. Buying Apple is not hard. MacRumors.com even has a great buyer's guide catering to this need to know when products are upgraded and time purchases accordingly.
With Tesla, the next model is often out right after or before you even get your car.
Thank you for sharing that hilarious story. Yep, you just can't win with Tesla, the company is really out to screw over their customers by constantly innovating. Curse you Elon for making me buy the latest and greatest because I just can't resist the awesomeness!
I do not agree that is the definition of "obsolete" in this context. Obsolete means more than that.
ob·so·lete
- no longer produced or used; out of date.
"the disposal of old and obsolete machinery"
synonyms: outdated, out of date, outmoded, old-fashioned, démodé, passé, out of fashion;
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The 90D is not obsolete. Neither are non-ventilated seats.
Saying "You really shouldn't get stuck on words" is little different from saying "The meaning of words doesn't matter". And of course commonly accepted definitions of words does matter if you want to have effective communication. If you want to live in Wonderland, well then you can just make stuff up: "When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
That sounds to me like believing in "alternative facts" as defined by the Ministry of Truth. Which is scary. Ministries of Nineteen Eighty-Four - Wikipedia
Well said. Casual use of words, let alone using them improperly is all over these forums and tends to drive some of us old fashioned wordsmiths bananas. I can understand the desire expressed by @AnxietyRanger and others to have "the latest and greatest." As you say, the car/model/phone that is no longer the latest and greatest is far from obsolete and in the case of a Tesla still likely to upgraded to capabilities it never had when the owner took delivery. For those who can afford it, chasing after the latest and greatest is certainly an option and no different than people who bought a new car every year twenty years ago to have "this year's model." It's just a little tougher (and more expensive) in a Tesla because upgrades come out so frequently and not as predictably as the traditional automotive "model year".
I can even understand being disappointed that a model/upgrade/whatever comes out after one orders. What I just don't get is this feeling expressed by some that Tesla is lying/manipulative/disingenuous/dishonest/unfair/whatever because they don't allow you to change a legal contract you signed to purchase a vehicle to another vehicle anytime you want without financial penalties and changing to whatever their current contract terms and conditions are. Disappointed? Sure I get that. But the factually incorrect use of those other words is simply incomprehensible and (to me) makes the person sound like a petulant, entitled consumer who is not satisfied unless they get exactly what they want.
As for me, I'm getting my 90D with FUSC just like I ordered (and Tesla committed to providing me) and I will be very happy with that car for years to come. But then again, I've only owned three cars in my adult life and shortest period I ever owned one was 7 years and I currently use an iPhone 5C because I don't feel a pressing need (and lack the means) to spend more money on the "latest and greatest" when what I have meets my needs.
Will my FUSC every pay off financially? Probably not as most of my driving is to/from work. Will that FUSC make my car worth more when I ultimately sell it/trade it in? Who knows, but if it does it likely won't add more than $500 value to the car. Will my 90D with FUSC be worth less than a 100D five years from now? Almost certainly by probably around $2-3K, however I suspect how many miles on the car will have a far greater impact on the car's value and that a 90D with, say 40,000 miles will likely be worth more than a 100D with 60,000 miles given how consumers currently appraise/judge the value of cars.
At the end of the day I am thrilled to be in a position to buy an incredible car.
I can even understand being disappointed that a model/upgrade/whatever comes out after one orders. What I just don't get is this feeling expressed by some that Tesla is lying/manipulative/disingenuous/dishonest/unfair/whatever because they don't allow you to change a legal contract you signed to purchase a vehicle to another vehicle anytime you want without financial penalties and changing to whatever their current contract terms and conditions are. Disappointed? Sure I get that. But the factually incorrect use of those other words is simply incomprehensible and (to me) makes the person sound like a petulant, entitled consumer who is not satisfied unless they get exactly what they want.
As for me, I'm getting my 90D with FUSC just like I ordered (and Tesla committed to providing me) and I will be very happy with that car for years to come. But then again, I've only owned three cars in my adult life and shortest period I ever owned one was 7 years and I currently use an iPhone 5C because I don't feel a pressing need (and lack the means) to spend more money on the "latest and greatest" when what I have meets my needs.
Will my FUSC every pay off financially? Probably not as most of my driving is to/from work. Will that FUSC make my car worth more when I ultimately sell it/trade it in? Who knows, but if it does it likely won't add more than $500 value to the car. Will my 90D with FUSC be worth less than a 100D five years from now? Almost certainly by probably around $2-3K, however I suspect how many miles on the car will have a far greater impact on the car's value and that a 90D with, say 40,000 miles will likely be worth more than a 100D with 60,000 miles given how consumers currently appraise/judge the value of cars.
At the end of the day I am thrilled to be in a position to buy an incredible car.
I appreciate all the thoughtful replies to my message here in this thread, and I apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread. I'm the one who used the word "obsolete" to describe my as-of-yet undelivered/unproduced 90D. And if you look back at my message, you'll see that I made it clear that I was using the word in a facetious manner. And if that makes me sound petulant and entitled (in the same message I admitted to sounding like a big baby with my complaints), well that's because I am. I'm about to drop over $100k of my own money on a car and I am going to make for damn sure that I get what I want. I do not intend to settle for less without trying to rectify the situation for my own selfish well-being. Settling for the status quo just isn't in my DNA like it might be for some people. I'm not dickering over the $2500 because I can't part with the money by any stretch. I'm doing it for the principle. Contracts, like rules, are meant to be broken and renegotiated.
I want to say that Tesla doesn't owe me anything. But I do feel that in my particular instance, there was enough misinformation and less-than-transparent messaging to create a sense of doubt in my mind. Being told that I couldn't make a change three weeks ago because the car was imminently going into production starts to smell fishy when today the car hasn't even entered production yet. That's all I'm saying.
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Careful, I tried this one a few months ago and @Canuck got all bent out of shape because the word "or" is not conjunctive. It was quite clear that I won that argument (
to @Canuck when he comes to see why he was mentioned), but he'll be here soon to tell you why, if it's no longer produced, it doesn't matter if it's used.Hint: reference common usage. It gets him worked up.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Careful, I tried this one a few months ago and @Canuck got all bent out of shape because the word "or" is not conjunctive. It was quite clear that I won that argument (
Hint: reference common usage. It gets him worked up.
Ha! I do remember that. The funny thing is, while technically I was correct, according to the meaning of “obsolete” in the English "Cambridge" dictionary, which is where you Americans got your language (remember?), it means: not in use any more, having been replaced by something newer and better or more fashionable I do get Ohmman's and everyone else's position. That is:
"Look, we've basically ruined the English language. We no longer know what anything really means, and we take offence, and find it derogatory, and offensive, when you use a word as it was intended."
In reality, everyone just needs to calm down! There's nothing wrong with something being obsolete!
How about if I say this:
I really love my obsolete 2014 non-AP classic S 85. Even though it's not in use any more, having been replaced by something newer and better or more fashionable, it's still the love of my life. Well, except for my wife, who is also obsolete, except that, while Tesla will give me a really low offer on my S, my wife will take half of everything I own if I trade her in on a new one. Actually, she's reading over my shoulder and wants to trade me in!
We're both obsolete!
There... now do you know what obsolete really means?!
HankLloydRight
No Roads
This just goes to show how many layers of opinion there are.
Personally, I think AP1 was launched just fine - despite missing it and receiving my P85 a couple of weeks after the P85D/85D/AP1 unveil. Realistically, in 2016 it was already possible to understand AP2 is coming along. One had two years to buy AP1.
So, while unfortunate, that goes more towards the usual cycle of things. It could be avoided a bit by using model years, though, after all many cars and even iPhones basically have model years... but that's beside my point really. The biggest issue with Tesla is they pacing and speed of changes being equal or greater than the delivery time of the car. That's the big one.
What I personally thought AP2 launch was missing was the grouping with other features. Facelift came in Q2. P100D came in Q3. AP2 in Q4. 100D in Q1 and so forth. THAT is IMO what makes things hard. The constant major changes and lack of any grouping/pacing. The AP1 was launched EASY compared to this.
AP1 was launched just fine. It was a great, clear-cut buying opportunity that combined power and brains upgrades. Those who bought a P85D then (691 hp debacle aside) had a very good run with the latest and the greatest, both technically and driving-wise. Absolutely nothing wrong with that story IMO, even though personally I missed it.
The same can not really be said of many a guy who ordered a P100D in Q3 or a 90D AP2 in Q4... and perhaps we will again in Q2 have things that will make the Q1 orders be no longer the latest and the greatest (HUD? dash computer upgrade?). And in reverese, some 100D buyers will miss those ventilated seats and FUSC etc.
Tesla's erratic ways have made buying one very hard, if one wants the latest and the greatest. With other cars such buying opportunities exist much more certainly.
Aside from inventory models, I am actually claiming it is pretty much impossible with a Tesla at the moment. Even near the factory where you can get the car within the same quarter, you are likely to get it in the closing days of the quarter - and a few weeks into the next quarter Tesla will unleash something major. Many a Californian Model X 90D 5 seater is still waiting parts for their trunk today while their car is already an old model. International orders are batched so that they may span three quarters and the likelihood of the car actually being "obsoleted" twice during the process is quite probable.
With an iPhone, you know the next one won't come out before you get yours, if you act reasonably early. With Tesla it doesn't really matter how early you act.
My suggestion is that Tesla should consider grouping changes a little more. For example if AP2/P100D/100D were grouped as one and preceding/following quarters were left without such major changes, that would have created a more clear-cut buying opportunity for such people. Instead we are seeing many such people enter holding patterns.
Basically Tesla's policy is Osbourning themselves a little, is my opinion. When you know every quarter something big and also a couple of small things will change, where is the incentive to upgrade for example. If I just wait a little longer... Having more of those AP1/P85D/85D clear-cut buying opportunities could help.
Now this, this I can definitely appreciate. You are not in the group of people who want the latest and the greatest. And you are right, in this case you will also get some benefits compared to 100D - again one of those "wonderful" Tesla quirks that make buying them anything but a straightforward task.
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I will add it's obvious that Tesla are not supply constrained.
Every quarter they come up with a new reason for people to order. It's been the P90D, the P90DL. The P100DL. The sales discounts (3rd qtr). The unlimited supercharging cut-off (4th qtr). Now we have a 100D. Next quarter redesign interior / HUD? You bet they'll do something before the Model 3. Also $35 will get you a basic Model 3. There will be options for a bigger battery, more powerful engine, 4wd, obviously the enhanced autopilot stuff. I can see a top spec model 3 going close to $80k. What i'm curious about is that if people at the head of the queue will be allowed a $35k car - or have to take a $80k sig version - and will have to keep deferring until they can buy the "cheap" RWD one they want!
It seems the 100D is worth the extra $ as you have according to WK's photos a battery with a bit over 100kW of capacity vs <90 in a 90D.
I think you have it backwards. Tesla doesn't constantly come up with major new and desirable features just to keep the production line running. Elon drives the company to constantly innovate because he believes in creating a better future (Proof: that is exactly what he does at SpaceX and Tesla Energy as well). Those innovations create additional demand, which is why Tesla doesn't have parking lots full of cars that you can browse, buy, and take immediate delivery. Instead, you order your car and then you wait for delivery. Tesla is supply constrained.
I must join the choir that doesn't believe Tesla is supply constrained anymore (excluding some specific corner cases).
First of all, Tesla does have lots of inventory nowadays. You only wait if you want exactly what you want - or for that new model that comes out every quarter, because the inventory has not been spread out yet.
Second, I do feel they are busy creating demand levers each and every quarter. Not all of them can be explained away as constant innovation, not at all. They even went deep into discounting territory.
Sure, Tesla was probably supply constrained in Q4 due to AP2 and with Model X through H1/2016 at least, maybe a bit more. But other than that, for Model S, I don't really think they have been supply constrained lately at all. In Q3 people got cars in a week or so (excluding international distribution slowness).
Just my view, of course.
They always read. Don't always respond officially like this. In fact, I can't think of another instance where they have like Jon.
I actually thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, it is just my understanding that in fact you did not get the 100D with unlimited supercharging and or ventilated seats. Is that correct?
I was just suggesting to maybe to change the title to keep it up to date, something like "100D, unlimited supercharging and ventilated seats!!!! I DID IT! WOOO WOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Almost"
Just messing really
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