Bought AP1 and got AP2? Contact the AG.

[bmah]

Moderator note #1: Parallel threads in the Model S and Model X forums were combined and moved to the general Tesla, Inc. forum.

Moderator note #2: Please keep comments respectful and on-topic.

Thanks,

Bruce.

 

[alevek]

At first I thought OP was being sarcastic. If you bought an AP1 car and got an AP2 instead why would you complain? You get a ton of more potential new features for the same price?

 

[Az_Rael]

At first I thought OP was being sarcastic. If you bought an AP1 car and got an AP2 instead why would you complain? You get a ton of more potential new features for the same price?

I think the issue is it wasn’t the same price. Tesla sent letters to those folks telling them they needed to pay more to get the new potential features. Received AP 2 upgrade email Saturday

They ordered AP1 cars (with said rain sensing wipers), and during production, they were told they were getting AP2 cars, and could they pony up some extra $$ for the new features? Those that did pay extra (I would guess most took this option) haven’t gotten any of those new features they were asked to pay for, and they still don’t have all of the features advertised on the car they originally bought over a year ago.

I don’t blame them for being salty. Tesla is way behind on this one - no one with cars on order in October of 2016 could have predicted we would be rolling into 2018 without any sign of the “enhanced” part of EAP.



I am just hoping AP 2 can read speed limit signs by mid next year when I get my 3. Having driven several AP 2 loaners, well over half of my 40 mile one way commute can’t use AP2. The road isn’t in their database so I get limited to 45mph on a 65mph road. AP1 works beautifully on the same road.

 

[bhzmark]

I asked Tesla to remedy it. They told me to be patient and told me I they had no idea when it would ship. Zero other remedies offered. Another path is clearly needed to get them to do anything.

What did you suggest for an alternative reasonable remedy? And what did they say?

 

[croman]

Koch bothers, is that you?

Way to go low. If the Koch "bothers" only owned EVs (no ICE for me!) and rock renewables. Sure. Then those guys. Otherwise keep your personal smears to yourself.

 

[jaguar36]

I'm shocked that the op is getting so much hate in this thread. He very clearly bought a product that was not as advertised. Sure involving lawyers may not speed it up (although I think if Tesla put more resources on it it could), but they have done this time, and time, and time again. Tesla needs to learn that this is not an acceptable way to do business.

 

[unbelievable]

Way to go low. If the Koch "bothers" only owned EVs (no ICE for me!) and rock renewables. Sure. Then those guys. Otherwise keep your personal smears to yourself.

Wow relax. It was a light hearted joke. Dislike away.

 

[ChicagolandMX]

Who says I want it faster? I want Tesla to stop advertising future features so that future customers don't get trapped by their fantastical timelines. Getting spanked by an AG for advertising features the car doesn't have would help curtail this behavior going forward.

Seriously- they let me test drive a car with auto wipers. The website said "auto wipers." The manual STILL says "auto wipers." They never informed me the car didn't have auto wipers. How is that behavior acceptable? They don't seem to have learned from doing this with previous releases either, so it appears they do need some external pressure to get them to stop.

Do you get out of your car to "manually" wipe the windshield? Do you have a cable in the cab you need to pull to move the wipers? Don't know about you, but I have a switch I can turn counterclockwise and it will automatically activate the wipers at a set interval.

 

[gearchruncher]

The Tesla Manual says:

Model X has a rain sensor located on the inside of the windshield at the base of the interior mirror. When wipers are set to Auto, the frequency at which they wipe depends on how much water the sensor detects. When wipers are set to the 2nd level, the sensor is more sensitive.

This is not true in an AP2 car. Rain sensing wipers are clearly different from intermittent wipers.

It's fine if you find this discrepancy to not be an issue, but for some people it is. We paid for something Tesla advertised that the car clearly does not have, and that's a pretty crappy thing for a company to do, especially when a year later all they will tell you is to "be patient."

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Can you help me understand how entangling Tesla Corporate in a lawsuit or getting spanked by an AG will cause the software engineering team to write code faster? Or do you think that adding more engineers will somehow result in speeding this up? (It won't.) And do you really believe they haven't heard from customers?

As much as I abhor legal action (I would personally prefer gentle public feedback doing the thing, instead), I have to say the Norwegian P85D HD lawsuit as well as the P90DL performance counter/limiter lawsuits seem to have brought genuine changes into how Tesla markets and implements certain things. So certainly the precedent is, legal pressure on issues can cause improvements in specification accuracy (or removal of misleading specs).

That said, Tesla still posts a pretty tall tale e.g. on their Autopilot page, so we're not quite "there" yet.

Autopilot

Personally I would just wish Tesla listened and stopped posting aspirational features in their current marketing, let alone into sales where actual customer money is taken. The current product is great enough, why not just talk about that. As you complete new features, then add them into the mix.

This whole thread would not exist if OP originally were not asked for money for EAP under what turned out to be pretty poor information, but EAP would have been only offered at cost later once it actually became available. Indeed that would have been my suggestion for the whole EAP/FSD thing: if Tesla would have just kept selling AP1 features since October 2016, there would be much less outcry from EAP/FSD folks. EAP/FSD could be offered later, once available, as at-cost software upgrades, in the meanwhile the Design Studio could simply have sold AP1 features (or similar) as it used to.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's fine if you find this discrepancy to not be an issue, but for some people it is. We paid for something Tesla advertised that the car clearly does not have, and that's a pretty crappy thing for a company to do, especially when a year later all they will tell you is to "be patient."

I think the worst thing is, there is no transparency. Once Tesla noticed they are going to miss the mark spectacularly on enhanced Autopilot, auto-wipers etc., why not offer transparency into the situation? And where are the FSD differentiating features we were getting in April - July, 2017, according to Elon?

Continued transparency would go a long way, IMO. And by this I don't mean "silky smooth" tweets, I mean why not have an engineer write a blog entry about the progress every quarter for these delayed features where customer money has already exchanged hands. That would seem like a very fair move. They wouldn't have to predict anything, just tell about the current status.

Unfortunately in recent times Tesla has had no culture of transparency. They don't even really tell which bugs they fix (something that many companies do tell). The focus is on the continued marketing hype and quarterly demand levers, mixed with the occasional defensive blog post (e.g. P85D HP or Hotbed of Misinformation).

How refreshing it would be to see a true mea culpa blog on EAP/FSD letting us know what happened and where things stand now!

 

[Tam]

...there is no transparency...

When Tesla sold AP1 since 2014, it promised that the system would be functional for Freeway On-ramp to Off-ramp among other features BUT with a disclosure that it's not a final product.

I would think the court would find that owners have been buying an unfinished product whether AP1 or AP2, so owners have no case in suing something that owners themselves have accepted as a beta!

 

[bambam4171]

So rainsensing wipers is what, a 200$ feature? Given the reliability of any rainsensing wipers I came across I certainly would not pay more. Well go then and ask for a 200$ refund and be happy, why don't you?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

When Tesla sold AP1 since 2014, it promised that the system would be functional for Freeway On-ramp to Off-ramp among other features BUT with a disclosure that it's not a final product.

I would think the court would find that owners have been buying an unfinished product whether AP1 or AP2, so owners have no case in suing something that owners themselves have accepted as a beta!

I would opine it is more granular than that. Each promise and communication must be weighed by itself as well as part of the whole, of course.

The EAP sale to AP1 ordered customers who got AP2 HW instead is particularly noteworthy, because more money was asked and accepted with a very specific message - these customers had ordered AP1 and were getting AP1 type of software on AP2 hardware, but were asked to pay more with specific messaging. (See first page of this thread.)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

So rainsensing wipers is what, a 200$ feature? Given the reliability of any rainsensing wipers I came across I certainly would not pay more. Well go then and ask for a 200$ refund and be happy, why don't you?

Apparently OP had asked about some kind of reimbursement, but nothing beyond "have patience" was offered.

 

[Tam]

...I would opine it is more granular than that...

What counts is what owners have bought.

It doesn't make sense in suing that Tesla didn't keep its promise because the contract shown to me was written in Courier font but Tesla gave me one written in Arial font instead!

What counts is the meaning, the content, not the fonts of the words!

It just doesn't make sense to sue after buying a salvage title car because the trims are not aligned or the car just doesn't run!

That's what "salvage title car" means so there's no need to spend energy in court citing that I was deceived!

And that is what owners bought a beta product either in AP1 or AP2. They are still beta!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

What counts is what owners have bought.

It doesn't make sense in suing that Tesla didn't keep its promise because the contract shown to me was written in Courier font but Tesla gave me one written in Arial font instead!

What counts is the meaning, the content, not the fonts of the words!

It just doesn't make sense to sue after buying a salvage title car because the trims are not aligned or the car just doesn't run!

That's what "salvage title car" means so there's no need to spend energy in court citing that I was deceived!

And that is what owners bought a beta product either in AP1 or AP2. They are still beta!

Sure. However in this inciden the owner (OP) clearly disagrees with your interpretation of what he/she bought.

 

[TJtv]

The one thing that is missing from ap2(but exists on ap1) is the ability to initiate an auto lane change on roads that aren’t freeways/interstates. Much of my driving is on roads with 2-3 lanes in each direction and not having this feature drastically reduces the usability of autopilot. Not sure why more people don’t mention this fact more often. To me, it’s a much more important feature than auto wipers, speed limit reading, or identifying trucks/cars/motorcycles.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@TJtv Fair point.

 

[BigD0g]

The one thing that is missing from ap2(but exists on ap1) is the ability to initiate an auto lane change on roads that aren’t freeways/interstates. Much of my driving is on roads with 2-3 lanes in each direction and not having this feature drastically reduces the usability of autopilot. Not sure why more people don’t mention this fact more often. To me, it’s a much more important feature than auto wipers, speed limit reading, or identifying trucks/cars/motorcycles.

I actually didn't realize AP1 had this functionality.