Brake and Roll test

[SPadival]

The first tell that this is a hit piece is that the source got the technical term backwards !! Any layperson with an iota of common sense can see the absurdity of braking while standstill and then rolling forever

 

[vinnie97]

The Washington Post, in general, is a remaining bastion of ethical journalism. It's always important to triangulate and evaluate for motivation, bias, et cetera... but they get a certain benefit of doubt from me.

Thanks for the comedy, truly. Let me know how many articles you find there about deplorable conditions inside of an Amazon sweatshop, or articles critical of a rogue/overstepping intelligence bureaucracy (after accounting for Bezos' multimillion dollar contract with the CIA). Geeze, sometimes it's just better to bite one's lip since I've stepped in it now.

 

[ℬête Noire]

If this test was not value-added for an EV before June 26, 2018, why would Tesla do it for 6+ years before that? Does the timing not demand a skeptical view?

This is how system improvements can happen. As processes evolve you can sometimes end up with vestigial steps that did serve a purpose but turns out they don't anymore. These can sit there for years and even decades "It's how we always have done it, it's for an important reason." It probably isn't that coincidental that this happened last month because there was a lot of focus on the process and smoothing out throughput. If there was unnecessary actions that were happening, or happening in a less optimal way being done in a certain place in the process, but required deep analysis to identify this it is entirely understandable that this was identified during such a shakedown.

As well, it could be very difficult to correctly assess this from the outside, by expert or not, since it can require a larger scope to get a handle on and probably a lot of data of what QA caught and where prior.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Yes, but then, consider that in the "road test" that tesla make, they have the correct software to get a lot of info, where other manufacturer doesn't have all this info or doesn't care to get all this info from the car after a lap ( since they have to re-connect the car or build a diagnostico software used only for testing ) and they prefer to use external tooling for some check, it's fine, just consider that Tesla does a lot more in the test lap, and it may be the case that they really doesn't need it since they can get the same result with the lap or with other test done before, again, we don't know what other step they take before that can make irrilevant the brake & roll test, the news is "they don't do this", but of course there is no news like "they do this that other don't do".
I'm not sayng that "this is the case", but until problem arise or similar you have to trust the automaker and in this because we don't know the fact, and the most important things is: neither the "experts".

It's like if you ask me, as an expert developer "they don't sanitize theyr input, it's safe?" i would say "it's a bad things", but if the developer writing the code say "we do this in another part of the code" who has the right of it? me? i've only just said that, since you asked me a single question i've replyed correctly, but my reply is irrelevant if the other developer has done it right, just in another way that of course i don't know.

Except the question isnt about the validity of the test overall vs redundancies... It is how they have performed what they feel is a necessary test on all vehicles... And suddenly last month say screw the test it is slowing us down. Then try to make a case that the other testing is good enough. Was this done because they did an analysis of the test and deemed it redundant and therefore dropped it? Or was it dropped as a desperate attempt to cut corners and achieve a magic number?

 

[ℬête Noire]

Except the question isnt about the validity of the test overall vs redundancies... It is how they have performed what they feel is a necessary test on all vehicles... And suddenly last month say screw the test it is slowing us down. Then try to make a case that the other testing is good enough. Was this done because they did an analysis of the test and deemed it redundant and therefore dropped it? Or was it dropped as a desperate attempt to cut corners and achieve a magic number?

Brake and Roll test

"Keep doing it that way because we've always done it that way" is a trap, a huge mental barrier to progress.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Brake and Roll test

"Keep doing it that way because we've always done it that way" is a trap, a huge mental barrier to progress.

People will go to any lengths to excuse something it seems.
Maybe tomorrow a Tesla rep will say that Tesla has been only doing brake and roll testing on half their vehicles over the previous year... And they have seen no difference in QC issues with the B&R cars and the non B&R cars... Thus we are discontinuing the B&R test as it is redundant.
yea sure

 

[ℬête Noire]

People will go to any lengths to excuse something it seems.

People will go to any lengths to excuse their fallacious reasoning and overwrought hand-wringing? *cough* LOL

Maybe tomorrow a Tesla rep will say that Tesla has been only doing brake and roll testing on half their vehicles over the previous year... And they have seen no difference in QC issues with the B&R cars and the non B&R cars... Thus we are discontinuing the B&R test as it is redundant.
yea sure

You don't need double blind like that to check. It can be as simple as finding that the number of "non-correctable" issues found by the earlier check isn't worth having the step there. The last step catching anything is enough, as the issues are economically correctable there. Do the math to simulate taking the step out, check the expected total cost both ways (including through put and resulting quality) , and make the call.

It is very conceivable that this was missed before because the process is huge, sprawling, and yeah, they're working from the base of "this is how car production lines have worked".

Is this what happened? Are Tesla correct? *shrug* I don't know, just don't have access to the data to begin to contemplate it, same boat as some 3rd party expert that BI talked to, but you sure as hell don't either, your busted reasoning notwithstanding.

 

[brkaus]

In this choose your own adventure thread I am going back to page 2 with the Toyota example. There is a company that studies every step, eliminates every inefficiency, and they continue to do the test. Although if the Toyota CEO goes into a plant at 3am and yells: F this test! I would hope it makes the news or garners a post on a Toyota forum. And Toyota owners would rush to his defense.

The requirements **may** be very different for a Toyota. My understanding (and I know at least as much as the BI reporter - nothing) is that the Toyota case that is the first time the engine is started. Thus it is important to see if it works earlier in the production line. There are also a great deal more connections along with a more complicated transmission that isn't tested earlier either.

 

[outdoors]

Maybe if Ford did a sniff test they wouldn't be fighting this recall.

Advocacy group seeks Ford Explorer recall due to fumes

Also would love to see Ford to attempt a track test of every F150. They can't. Hence the brake and Tootsie roll test.

Haters keep hating while I keep laughing.

 

[brkaus]

Maybe if Ford did a sniff test they wouldn't be fighting this recall.

Advocacy group seeks Ford Explorer recall due to fumes

Also would love to see Ford to attempt a track test of every F150. They can't. Hence the brake and Tootsie roll test.

Haters keep hating while I keep laughing.

I know my tax dollars went to testing and repairing police explorers due to CO issues. Ford denying.

 

[MXWing]

In this choose your own adventure thread I am going back to page 2 with the Toyota example. There is a company that studies every step, eliminates every inefficiency, and they continue to do the test. Although if the Toyota CEO goes into a plant at 3am and yells: F this test! I would hope it makes the news or garners a post on a Toyota forum. And Toyota owners would rush to his defense.

There's nothing to defend or attack yet.

What don't you get about "due on evaluation?"

 

[Yangy]

A few more thoughts:
- when consumer report couldn't recommend Tesla model 3 due to brake issues, the production procedure must have passed roll and brake tests. Obviously that didn't help the old cars even they passed roll and brake
- I'm not sure when did the real track test started, but it must be needed to verify the software update to fix the issue CR reported. So maybe it's quite recent.

If that is the case then it seems to be logical to call the roll and brake test redundant, and it only happened recently.

 

[nuts]

For those that are curious. Here's a Tesla on a roll brake machine:

If Tesla is doing true track testing, as in collecting data under various conditions, then that may be redundant. Track testing is not just driving around a bit on the way to the outbound logistics lot to park the car for pickup.

Hopefully they are capturing and adjusting things from a roll & brake test (or true track test) such as:

• High-speed system function
• Standard brake drag force and brake force
  
• Parking brake force
• ABS system function & control unit communication
  
• Stability control
• NVH

I think that's really part of the problem. The tests that Tesla might be doing on a track test, don't seem to be publicized, and even if they were, i would think they are not as exacting for quality standards vs the brake/roll test you listed above. In addition, since Elon is looking to speed up the overall build process, one can assume that the track test is probably quicker (time wise) than the brake and roll otherwise they would have cut out the track test.

I'll also mention that i just hunkered down on the 2500 additional non-refundable deposit for the vehicle, so as much as i'd like to see Tesla meet its milestones, i'd rather not have them put out a potentially inferior product due to an automotive test being skipped. (The reference to the Pinto was somewhat funny, but it inevitably places this into a reality check with people's lives)

 

[ℬête Noire]

The tests that Tesla might be doing on a track test....i would think they are not as exacting for quality standards vs the brake/roll test you listed above.

Please explain your reasoning here. I'm looking at the video and the read-outs, if that's all there is, look pretty simple. Maybe there's more data processing going on behind? In any event I'm not sure what would be there that couldn't be pulled off the CAM bus jack in the Model 3. Remember that with modern cars they tend to be loaded out the whazoo with instrumentation, for use in ABS, traction control, and what not.

Further, we've seen Tesla test mules on the road with extra instrumentation some of which could be relatively easily added for track testing.

Not sure how far they take the track testing? For example if they are going by driver's "ear" or actually load onboard portable acoustic profiling devices and such, too.

 

[nuts]

Please explain your reasoning here. I'm looking at the video and the read-outs, if that's all there is, look pretty simple. Maybe there's more data processing going on behind? In any event I'm not sure what would be there that couldn't be pulled off the CAM bus jack in the Model 3. Remember that with modern cars they tend to be loaded out the whazoo with instrumentation, for use in ABS, traction control, and what not.

Further, we've seen Tesla test mules on the road with extra instrumentation some of which could be relatively easily added for track testing.

Not sure how far they take the track testing? For example if they are going by driver's "ear" or actually load onboard portable acoustic profiling devices and such, too.

Please read my whole post before responding. One of the challenges is simply that we don't know what Tesla is including in the track test. If its truly redundant, you can bet the farm that the Tesla executive who commented to the press would have simply stated that they removed the brake/roll test, because they have a track test which is completely redundant.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Please read my whole post before responding. One of the challenges is simply that we don't know what Tesla is including in the track test. If its truly redundant, you can bet the farm that the Tesla executive who commented to the press would have simply stated that they removed the brake/roll test, because they have a track test which is completely redundant.

I read it. Twice (and again, now). Let me narrow it down further to make what I'm questioning clearer.

"...i would think they are not as exacting for quality standards vs the brake/roll test you listed above."

Why do you think this? You're saying "we don't know" and then making an assumption. What's the basis for this assumption?

 

[Barklikeadog]

Maybe if Ford did a sniff test they wouldn't be fighting this recall.

Advocacy group seeks Ford Explorer recall due to fumes

Also would love to see Ford to attempt a track test of every F150. They can't. Hence the brake and Tootsie roll test.

Haters keep hating while I keep laughing.

Did ford do something wrong? I am offended. 10 thumbs down. I refuse to admit they did something wrong. I feel personally attacked. If you don't own a ford you can't say anything bad about ford.

Did I hit the right buttons?

 

[chronopc]

According to CNET it seems like it's perfectly reasonable to change a way a car is tested.

The timing of the change is definitely suspicious. But it also makes sense that companies look at their production process and try to find and eliminate things that are redundant.

Tesla changed its testing regimen for the Model 3, and that's OK - Roadshow

 

[D3xDt3Reaction]

From Tesla changed its testing regimen for the Model 3, and that's OK - Roadshow:
“Tesla has confirmed to Roadshow that its brake-and-roll testing and on-track testing procedures are identical.”

 

[outdoors]

Did ford do something wrong? I am offended. 10 thumbs down. I refuse to admit they did something wrong. I feel personally attacked. If you don't own a ford you can't say anything bad about ford.

Did I hit the right buttons?

When I see LE puking their guts out because of this. Well we all own a Ford then. My community has 3 explorers in it's line up.

Yours is a platnium F150. The platnium beads in your catalytic converter must soak up all the exhaust. How much was that option?