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Brakes did not engage!
- Thread starter Chicago5008
- Start date
Is any automaker obligated to provide the EDR data? Or just make it available?
Tesla EDR Kit - Crash Data Group
Tesla EDR Kit - Crash Data Group
mtndrew1
Active Member
The brake system is a hydraulic system with valves that can prevent the the brake pressure from reaching the wheels (i.e. ABS). Given that Tesla had documented problems with their ABS system firmware in early Model 3 (which they fixed with an OTA update) it's not impossible for there to be a failure that "un-fails".
I believe this is very unlikely and is likely just pedal misapplication but it's not physically impossible.
Good point. I’m with you, possible but unlikely.
mtndrew1
Active Member
If, after investigation, this turns out to be a defect with the car and not pedal misapplication please report it to NHTSA at File a Vehicle Safety Complaint | Safercar.gov | NHTSA
@Chicago5008
One point I should probably make here, which I did not consider up until now. It is important we don't lead you down the wrong path.
While Tesla has the ability to retrieve this data, it may be the responsibility of law enforcement, and their accompanying report that is most important in your case. You should have a conversation with your insurance provider, as well as law enforcement to find out what is required and who best should get the data for you. If you have an attorney involved, they may also be able to give you guidance.
There may be chain of custody issues that also require preservation of evidence - since this is for insurance purposes they will likely want to make sure the evidence is not tampered with.
Good luck and let us know how things work out.
One point I should probably make here, which I did not consider up until now. It is important we don't lead you down the wrong path.
While Tesla has the ability to retrieve this data, it may be the responsibility of law enforcement, and their accompanying report that is most important in your case. You should have a conversation with your insurance provider, as well as law enforcement to find out what is required and who best should get the data for you. If you have an attorney involved, they may also be able to give you guidance.
There may be chain of custody issues that also require preservation of evidence - since this is for insurance purposes they will likely want to make sure the evidence is not tampered with.
Good luck and let us know how things work out.
Obstacle Aware Acceleration also possibly kicked in at slow speed.
So the car maybe didn't accelerate towards the accident like it would with a 100% throttle, but at very reduced torque. Which could well feel like the car 'just wouldn't stop'.
In which case, well done Tesla, for avoiding what could have been a bad accident, if it had accelerated at full throttle towards the accident.
So the car maybe didn't accelerate towards the accident like it would with a 100% throttle, but at very reduced torque. Which could well feel like the car 'just wouldn't stop'.
In which case, well done Tesla, for avoiding what could have been a bad accident, if it had accelerated at full throttle towards the accident.
Garrett0606
Member
I had something similar happen to me while pulling out of a parking spot. I pulled out ( had backed in to the spot) and got going about 10 mph and tried to press the brake but it was almost like the break pedal was stuck. I know it wasnt the gas pedal since i wasnt accelerating so i had to pull over and coast till i could just put the car into park. ( all still in the parking lot). I got out of the car checked the pedal to make sure there was nothing blocking it. And then checked all the breaks. When i got back in the car and tried again everything was normal.
Tesla's not likely to provide much, if any info, without some legal order to do so.
Briefly, I'll just note as other's have that these phrases don't go together: "not high speed" and "ALL of the airbags deployed".
First, by "all" of the airbags, to me that is the driver steering wheel, driver knee, passenger knee, passenger top, driver seat, passenger seat, driver curtain, passenger curtain. To do all of the airbags, the crash would have to be pretty severe. As in, high speed with both high lateral and longitudinal components in the impact vector. That's not consistent with an accident that was "not high speed".
A light bump to the front of the car, even at creep speeds of 5-10 MPH, you're not likely to get any airbag deployment at all.
The braking system on the Tesla is the same hydraulic brake system used in virtually every vehicle on the road. The booster is electro-mechanical and not vacuum, but that's the only difference really. The pedal itself still has a direct physical link to the master cylinder, so even if the booster fails, the brakes still work (with additional effort required for hard stops).
Tesla also has transducers on the hydraulic lines as well to detect brake system pressure. Anything close to a physical failure (like, someone cutting the brake lines) is noticed immediately.
So....... back to pedal misapplication. It's really the only explanation here.
This sounds kind of strange. The closest thing to this that's actually possible is the brake booster failing to energize, which wouldn't stop the brakes from working, but would make using them slightly more difficult. There is nothing on the car that can make the brake pedal stay stuck up. The opposite is true, as the car can *apply* the brake and force it to stay engaged using the iBooster... but return/release is basic mechanical/hydraulic/spring, not electronic.
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Anyway, while not specifically within the scope of my bet, I'd wager that this is yet another pedal misapplication situation, and that the logs would easily prove it beyond any doubt.
Briefly, I'll just note as other's have that these phrases don't go together: "not high speed" and "ALL of the airbags deployed".
First, by "all" of the airbags, to me that is the driver steering wheel, driver knee, passenger knee, passenger top, driver seat, passenger seat, driver curtain, passenger curtain. To do all of the airbags, the crash would have to be pretty severe. As in, high speed with both high lateral and longitudinal components in the impact vector. That's not consistent with an accident that was "not high speed".
A light bump to the front of the car, even at creep speeds of 5-10 MPH, you're not likely to get any airbag deployment at all.
The braking system on the Tesla is the same hydraulic brake system used in virtually every vehicle on the road. The booster is electro-mechanical and not vacuum, but that's the only difference really. The pedal itself still has a direct physical link to the master cylinder, so even if the booster fails, the brakes still work (with additional effort required for hard stops).
Tesla also has transducers on the hydraulic lines as well to detect brake system pressure. Anything close to a physical failure (like, someone cutting the brake lines) is noticed immediately.
So....... back to pedal misapplication. It's really the only explanation here.
This sounds kind of strange. The closest thing to this that's actually possible is the brake booster failing to energize, which wouldn't stop the brakes from working, but would make using them slightly more difficult. There is nothing on the car that can make the brake pedal stay stuck up. The opposite is true, as the car can *apply* the brake and force it to stay engaged using the iBooster... but return/release is basic mechanical/hydraulic/spring, not electronic.
---
Anyway, while not specifically within the scope of my bet, I'd wager that this is yet another pedal misapplication situation, and that the logs would easily prove it beyond any doubt.
I just had a similar accident. Driving on freeway at about 50. Car slows/stops in front. I apply brakes hard. I slowed but still crashed, and "felt" that I was not getting full braking power. Airbags deployed. I am 100% fine. I am 100% certain I didn't hit the accelerator since doing that would create massive acceleration (it's a late model dual motor car). I have two thoughts. First, I wonder if ABS kicked in and didn't let me brake as hard as I wished. And second, more importantly, I have no recollection of the giant red warning sign and loud beeping that's a feature of the emergency braking system. Why didn't this go off? It's certainly possible I was going too fast or following too close. Unfortunately, I tried to save the last seconds of dash cam video, but the electrical system was pretty much shot, and it would work. I pulled the dash cam USB and only have video leading up to the accident. I am now trying to figure out how to the the EDR data and report, and this seems to be a challenging process. If anyone has any insight as to how I can go about this or whom I can contact, I would really appreciate it. I don't want to spend 1,000 for cables and try to figure this out myself. Thanks in advance for any help or comments.
The only time I've had that happen to me was when the car was on snow or ice. I don't think you get much brake feedback because the ABS limits it to as much as is possible without complete lock up and that isn't much on a slick surface, hence the feeling that you're not getting any braking.
mtndrew1
Active Member
If your Obstacle Aware Acceleration is enabled in the safety and security tab it’s absolutely possible to mash the accelerator and rear end a car without full power.
It would feel like very restrained acceleration followed by gentle decel as the AEB starts to take over.
SeanM
Member
Sorry to hear about the accident, glad your father is fine, though can't say the same about the car.
Remember, almost 9 out of 10 times, it's been found the drivers are mostly at fault in frontal accidents. It just take less than a second to hit a vehicle in front.. period.
But, our brains feels that one second was a long long time for them to react (to which they did react), but their car didn't respond as fast as they wanted it to.
Hopefully, Tesla can help you out to check if it was the car's fault or a simple human error. All the best.
One pedal driving (regen) with a Tesla is different than an ICE car. When driving an ICE car, if you think you may need to slow down you'll move your foot from the accelerator and hover it over the brake pedal. If you need to stop you just push down, foot already over the brake pedal. With a Tesla you keep your foot over the accelerator and modulate it upward to slow down (to a normal stop) or to coast. Foot does not go over the brake pedal. For an emergency stop, or one that's faster than regen, you hit the brakes. I love one pedal driving, but it can take a split second longer to hit the brakes. Tesla brake feel is also firmer than some cars. I was used to BMW. Their brakes are powerful with a relatively light touch. Tesla has powerful brakes too, but you need to push harder. I don't tailgate as much as I'm not able to hover my foot. But, I love how regen makes it easy to keep a fixed distance behind another car. It's different, but awesome if you can adapt to it.
All cars sold in the US (and probably everywhere) have dual braking system. Essentially the master cylinder is two master cylinders -- one for the front brakes, one for the rear. So, the chances of both systems failing are astronomically low. It would require physical failure of both hydraulic piston sets. The ONLY way this could reasonably happen is of the master cylinder reservoir was, essentially, empty, as it feeds both master cylinders. Easy to check.
