Brand new Powerwall owner questions (mostly UPS related)

[Max Kaladin]

Hi,

I'm a brand new Powewall owner (my first Tesla product). I got 2 Powerwalls installed a couple of months ago with everything ready but the city/utility company inspections. The last inspection was completed Monday and the system was turned on later that day. While power outages are actually quite rare where I live, I had my first power outage last night due to a storm. The Powerwalls worked as expected. (I got to see them switch over in the app. I got an alert that something called "Storm Watch" was active. I opened the app to look at it then my lights flickered a moment and the display switched to show I was drawing from battery power.) My UPS units, however, weren't all happy. One was fine but another wasn't. I'm not sure if that one failed because of the Powerwalls or unrelated. It's alarm went off but I didn't get to troubleshoot much before the power came back on.

Questions:

1. Is there a list somewhere of "known compatible" UPS units that I could consult before I buy a UPS? I had been looking at one of these: APC Back-UPS Pro 1500S, 1500VA, 120V, Sinewave, AVR, LCD, 2 USB charging ports, 10 NEMA outlets (4
2. I'm aware of a huge thread about Powerwall and UPS units that keeps talking about 63hz, 65hz, etc. I don't see anywhere in my app where I can check this setting for my installation. Where can I check this?
3. Related to #2, I downloaded the Tesla app for my phone and it gives me reporting around power usage and consumption, but basically no control over the batteries. I can set a percentage of self powered and turn on or off "Storm Watch" but that's about it. Is there another app I'm missing that will give me more information/control? (like the associated 63hz/65hz settings mentioned above).

Thanks!

 

[jjrandorin]

Welcome to TMC Energy subforum.

Quick summary.


1. The Eaton brand units work at higher frequencies, so those will work, but most of us would tell you that you should get the frequency lowered instead of buying UPS devices that tolerate higher frequencies, because other things in your home probably wont like the higher frequencies either.

2. There isnt anywhere in the app to see power frequency. You need a killawatt type device plugged into an outlet in your home and then throwing the main breaker, to see what it reports as power frequency. There are several different kinds of these plug in kill a watt type devices, but you want one with a display that can show you power frequency.

3. No, those are not owner facing settings. The control you have related to the tesla app is what tesla specifies (self powered, time of use etc). You can get more reporting information out by calling the APIs and such, and there are some third party automations that people are doing, but none of that is "necessary" to use the system properly.

Settings for power frequency etc are not user facing on purpose, as they control how your panels work during power outages etc.

 

[Max Kaladin]

Is 65hz the standard frequency? How do I get the frequency lowered? Is this something the installer can do? Note: My Powerwalls were not installed by Tesla. The company that installed my solar system a few years ago installed them. One reason I ask is because the technician is coming back on Friday to fix a minor issue and I'd like to ask then if they can do it.

I have a kilawatt device in my electrical toolbox but I'd have to check if it checks frequency.

Thank you for the other information.

 

[Vines]

Is 65hz the standard frequency? How do I get the frequency lowered? Is this something the installer can do? Note: My Powerwalls were not installed by Tesla. The company that installed my solar system a few years ago installed them. One reason I ask is because the technician is coming back on Friday to fix a minor issue and I'd like to ask then if they can do it.

I have a kilawatt device in my electrical toolbox but I'd have to check if it checks frequency.

Thank you for the other information.

Last I heard 65hz was the frequency Tesla chose which ensures all inverters would respond to the GW signal to turn off PV production when the batteries get full.

Whether you can have a lower number depends on the inverter and specifically the firmware and grid profile.

Some inverters can have a powerwall-friendly grid profile loaded, depending on your local utility. Either you or your installer could call Tesla and explain what you want, and they will ask for the inverter model number before they reduce your frequency to a safe and lower than 65hz number.

 

[Fruitcake]

In a "normal' outage situation, PWs will ordinarily establish a microgrid at 60Hz.

In an outage situation where you are close to 100% battery capacity, the PWs will establish the microgrid at a higher frequency, like 65Hz. The higher Hz is how the PWs signal to the PV - if PV is even present - to stop producing.

A telltale clue is to look at the clocks on your ovens, microwaves, toaster ovens and other simplistic devices that maintain clock accuracy by power frequency. They will run fast for several minutes, because the frequency in your house is running faster than 60Hz. The time eventually stabilizes - albeit a bit ahead - when the microgrid reverts to 60Hz.

SO...

Depending on your situation, you might be operating at 65Hz or so until the PWs drop below a certain capacity (I am thinking it is 95%) at which point the frequency should stabilize to a more normal 60Hz.

 

[ZBB]

In a "normal' outage situation, PWs will ordinarily establish a microgrid at 60Hz.

In an outage situation where you are close to 100% battery capacity, the PWs will establish the microgrid at a higher frequency, like 65Hz. The higher Hz is how the PWs signal to the PV - if PV is even present - to stop producing.

A telltale clue is to look at the clocks on your ovens, microwaves, toaster ovens and other simplistic devices that maintain clock accuracy by power frequency. They will run fast for several minutes, because the frequency in your house is running faster than 60Hz. The time eventually stabilizes - albeit a bit ahead - when the microgrid reverts to 60Hz.

SO...

Depending on your situation, you might be operating at 65Hz or so until the PWs drop below a certain capacity (I am thinking it is 95%) at which point the frequency should stabilize to a more normal 60Hz.

FWIW... Before we had PTO, I was manually turning off our main grid breaker to go into an outage so we could leverage the solar during the day -- for about a month before PTO. Since the Powerwalls were full for most of the day (they system would flip between all solar and a little PW drain once the PWs were full), we saw significant clock drift during that time on the oven clock. Since we've had PTO, its no longer noticeable (I know this still happens during an actual outage with PW close to 100%, but we haven't had an outage long enough to actually matter -- but we have had a few ~5 min outages since then...)

 

[jboy210]

Hi,

I'm a brand new Powewall owner (my first Tesla product). I got 2 Powerwalls installed a couple of months ago with everything ready but the city/utility company inspections. The last inspection was completed Monday and the system was turned on later that day. While power outages are actually quite rare where I live, I had my first power outage last night due to a storm. The Powerwalls worked as expected. (I got to see them switch over in the app. I got an alert that something called "Storm Watch" was active. I opened the app to look at it then my lights flickered a moment and the display switched to show I was drawing from battery power.) My UPS units, however, weren't all happy. One was fine but another wasn't. I'm not sure if that one failed because of the Powerwalls or unrelated. It's alarm went off but I didn't get to troubleshoot much before the power came back on.

Questions:

1. Is there a list somewhere of "known compatible" UPS units that I could consult before I buy a UPS? I had been looking at one of these: APC Back-UPS Pro 1500S, 1500VA, 120V, Sinewave, AVR, LCD, 2 USB charging ports, 10 NEMA outlets (4
2. I'm aware of a huge thread about Powerwall and UPS units that keeps talking about 63hz, 65hz, etc. I don't see anywhere in my app where I can check this setting for my installation. Where can I check this?
3. Related to #2, I downloaded the Tesla app for my phone and it gives me reporting around power usage and consumption, but basically no control over the batteries. I can set a percentage of self powered and turn on or off "Storm Watch" but that's about it. Is there another app I'm missing that will give me more information/control? (like the associated 63hz/65hz settings mentioned above).

Thanks!

That UPS should work. The thing I look for is sinewave.

When I called Tesla I got a Level 1 support person. They cannot alter your settings. They have to have to create a ticket and send it elsewhere to have the frequency reduced. They will ask you for the brand and model of UPS. We use CyberPower 850 PFCLCDs and they lowered the max frequency to 62.5. This frequency has worked fine through a couple of dozen outages (Grrr PG&E).

 

[jrweiss98020]

Is 65hz the standard frequency? How do I get the frequency lowered? Is this something the installer can do? Note: My Powerwalls were not installed by Tesla. The company that installed my solar system a few years ago installed them. One reason I ask is because the technician is coming back on Friday to fix a minor issue and I'd like to ask then if they can do it.

I have a kilawatt device in my electrical toolbox but I'd have to check if it checks frequency.

Thank you for the other information.

Call Tesla Customer Service at (877)‐798‐3752 and ask them to lower the shift frequency to 62 or 62.5. Tell them the high shift frequency is playing havoc with your UPSes.

Your UPS is working correctly. It should detect any frequency out of spec (max 63 Hz per the ATX power supply spec and per the APC spec) and shift to UPS power. Other brands of UPS may tolerate higher freqs, but you don't want them fed into your computer. In fact, modern computer power supplies with power factor correction should have true sine wave power such as the Cyberpower PFC series cited above.

 

[cwied]

Hi,

I'm a brand new Powewall owner (my first Tesla product). I got 2 Powerwalls installed a couple of months ago with everything ready but the city/utility company inspections. The last inspection was completed Monday and the system was turned on later that day. While power outages are actually quite rare where I live, I had my first power outage last night due to a storm. The Powerwalls worked as expected. (I got to see them switch over in the app. I got an alert that something called "Storm Watch" was active. I opened the app to look at it then my lights flickered a moment and the display switched to show I was drawing from battery power.) My UPS units, however, weren't all happy. One was fine but another wasn't. I'm not sure if that one failed because of the Powerwalls or unrelated. It's alarm went off but I didn't get to troubleshoot much before the power came back on.

Questions:

1. Is there a list somewhere of "known compatible" UPS units that I could consult before I buy a UPS? I had been looking at one of these: APC Back-UPS Pro 1500S, 1500VA, 120V, Sinewave, AVR, LCD, 2 USB charging ports, 10 NEMA outlets (4
2. I'm aware of a huge thread about Powerwall and UPS units that keeps talking about 63hz, 65hz, etc. I don't see anywhere in my app where I can check this setting for my installation. Where can I check this?
3. Related to #2, I downloaded the Tesla app for my phone and it gives me reporting around power usage and consumption, but basically no control over the batteries. I can set a percentage of self powered and turn on or off "Storm Watch" but that's about it. Is there another app I'm missing that will give me more information/control? (like the associated 63hz/65hz settings mentioned above).

Thanks!

"Storm Watch" is a mode where the Powerwalls charge from the grid based on NWS warnings in your area so that they have more of a charge if the power goes out.
There are several threads in this forum mentioning UPS brands that appear to tolerate higher frequencies. Here's one, for example: UPS, part 2
The frequency shift is not user settable. You'll have to call Powerwall support to get it adjusted.
There is no other app to control the Powerwalls although some people have built DIY systems to automate changing settings in the Powerwall. This is probably not worth investigating unless you're technically inclined and have time to tinker.

 

[GJones]

To answer the specific equations about UPS use with Powerwalls - I had multiple problems with APC CyberPower UPS units that simple could not tolerate the synthetic frequency of the PowerWalls when off grid. Removed all of them and simply went bare for over a year. I have had numerous outages taking me off grid for periods from a few seconds to 30+ hours. My electronics inside behaved rather erratically - some with no impact and others with restarts caused by the switchover. Converted to Eaton for a couple of critical places and the Eaton have been flawless. Have two Eaton 3S 550 units and both have behaved well thru multiple outages.

 

[Vines]

To answer the specific equations about UPS use with Powerwalls - I had multiple problems with APC CyberPower UPS units that simple could not tolerate the synthetic frequency of the PowerWalls when off grid. Removed all of them and simply went bare for over a year. I have had numerous outages taking me off grid for periods from a few seconds to 30+ hours. My electronics inside behaved rather erratically - some with no impact and others with restarts caused by the switchover. Converted to Eaton for a couple of critical places and the Eaton have been flawless. Have two Eaton 3S 550 units and both have behaved well thru multiple outages.

What inverter model number do you have and when was your PV system installed?

The thing about those Eaton units is that they will not protect your power supplies in computers and others from the potentially harmful 65 hz signals the powerwall sends to turn off older solar systems. Computer power supplies are rated to about 63 hz from what I understand.

The confusing thing is the cyberpower units will switchover and run your device on local battery power during a grid outage, even though the powerwalls are powering the house. Then they run out of power and a user is wondering why his UPS died while plugged in yet the rest of the house worked fine?

It is also possible to pump 65 hz through your house and never really notice. Not all devices will die instantly or anything (except insteon maybe).

This is why I do not recommend the lower-end Eaton units. I would rather my cyberpower switchover and potentially run out of power than to damage my nice electronic power supplies with a 65 hz signal.

 

[GJones]

I actually have a mixed solar setup. The original install is Sunpower panels with SunnyBoy central inverter (installed 2007). Supplemental install of Sunpower panels with microinverters (2016) and Powerwalls in early 2019. The APC and Cyberpower units did indeed run out of juice during an outage - and as you said - the rest of the house hummed along just fine. The only impact that I have seen is the various clocks around the house that have to be reset after an extended outage. Routers, switches, modems, computers and other electronics all seem to tolerate the changed frequency without complaining.

 

[Vines]

I actually have a mixed solar setup. The original install is Sunpower panels with SunnyBoy central inverter (installed 2007). Supplemental install of Sunpower panels with microinverters (2016) and Powerwalls in early 2019. The APC and Cyberpower units did indeed run out of juice during an outage - and as you said - the rest of the house hummed along just fine. The only impact that I have seen is the various clocks around the house that have to be reset after an extended outage. Routers, switches, modems, computers and other electronics all seem to tolerate the changed frequency without complaining.

Well, if there is no issue then no worries.

If you start frying power supplies for computers and such then you know the source of the problem, it's the 65 hz pumping through your microgrid.

Keep that old inverter in good health. If those are positive ground sunpower panels (likely) they require it to produce properly, and those older transformer inverters which can be strapped for positive ground PV panels are becoming unobtanium.

 

[GJones]

Well, if there is no issue then no worries.

If you start frying power supplies for computers and such then you know the source of the problem, it's the 65 hz pumping through your microgrid.

Keep that old inverter in good health. If those are positive ground sunpower panels (likely) they require it to produce properly, and those older transformer inverters which can be strapped for positive ground PV panels are becoming unobtanium.

Yeah - it is possible to find old shelf stock via EBay but there does not appear to be any supply of newly manufactured units.

 

[Max Kaladin]

Last I heard 65hz was the frequency Tesla chose which ensures all inverters would respond to the GW signal to turn off PV production when the batteries get full.

Whether you can have a lower number depends on the inverter and specifically the firmware and grid profile.

Some inverters can have a powerwall-friendly grid profile loaded, depending on your local utility. Either you or your installer could call Tesla and explain what you want, and they will ask for the inverter model number before they reduce your frequency to a safe and lower than 65hz number.

I found a thread yesterday from the Tesla forums that implies that Tesla has adjusted the firmware to 63hz rather than 65hz but maybe the user is implying that they got Tesla to change it for them,

Thread: https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/182911/using-ups-with-powerwall

I don't have Tesla solar. My solar system was installed by a local company and they used a SolarEdge inverter. The same company installed my Powerwalls so I'm assuming they've configured it all to work together.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Max Kaladin]

That UPS should work. The thing I look for is sinewave.

When I called Tesla I got a Level 1 support person. They cannot alter your settings. They have to have to create a ticket and send it elsewhere to have the frequency reduced. They will ask you for the brand and model of UPS. We use CyberPower 850 PFCLCDs and they lowered the max frequency to 62.5. This frequency has worked fine through a couple of dozen outages (Grrr PG&E).

I specifically chose that one because it supports sinewave. Sounds like I need to update first, simulate an outage and see if it has trouble then call if it doesn't.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Max Kaladin]

Call Tesla Customer Service at (877)‐798‐3752 and ask them to lower the shift frequency to 62 or 62.5. Tell them the high shift frequency is playing havoc with your UPSes.

Your UPS is working correctly. It should detect any frequency out of spec (max 63 Hz per the ATX power supply spec and per the APC spec) and shift to UPS power. Other brands of UPS may tolerate higher freqs, but you don't want them fed into your computer. In fact, modern computer power supplies with power factor correction should have true sine wave power such as the Cyberpower PFC series cited above.

Thanks. I do have another APC UPS hooked up to my internet gateway and that one worked correctly. I had another outage today (no battery -- the solar company had to fix something on the system and took the power completely down) and the same UPS that complained last time complained with no power so I suspect it's just going bad.

 

[jboy210]

I specifically chose that one because it supports sinewave. Sounds like I need to update first, simulate an outage and see if it has trouble then call if it doesn't.

Thanks for the reply.

I would not bother seeing if you have an issue. Just call Tesla and when asked, give them the UPS model number. There is no downside to having them lower the max frequency from 65 to 62Hz or so.

 

[Max Kaladin]

"Storm Watch" is a mode where the Powerwalls charge from the grid based on NWS warnings in your area so that they have more of a charge if the power goes out.
There are several threads in this forum mentioning UPS brands that appear to tolerate higher frequencies. Here's one, for example: UPS, part 2
The frequency shift is not user settable. You'll have to call Powerwall support to get it adjusted.
There is no other app to control the Powerwalls although some people have built DIY systems to automate changing settings in the Powerwall. This is probably not worth investigating unless you're technically inclined and have time to tinker.

The storm hit right after Storm Watch kicked in but I had 100% charge anyway. I have not set up any self powered time so it's just going to sit on 100%. I've been debating whether I should bother with that since electricity is at a flat rate where I'm at (there are monthly adjustments that being self powered wouldn't really offset). It's a nice feature that I didn't know I had.

 

[Max Kaladin]

I would not bother seeing if you have an issue. Just call Tesla and when asked, give them the UPS model number. There is no downside to having them lower the max frequency from 65 to 62Hz or so.

Ok, I'll give them a call.