Jonathan Hewitt
Active Member
I see your point. My point is that Texas is no longer the most advantageous location. Who would want to run a business in a state run by corrupt politicians? (one could argue that is every state, but yeah...)
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Breaking News: Pro-Tesla Motors bill dies in Texas House (Austin Business Journal)
- Thread starter twinklejet
- Start date
I see your point. My point is that Texas is no longer the most advantageous location. Who would want to run a business in a state run by corrupt politicians? (one could argue that is every state, but yeah...)
That is hardly hypocritical to suggest that. SpaceX and Tesla are businesses. They are allowed to use legal leverage (not bribes) to try and get their way. That's just how the world works. Corporations threaten to move factories, sports teams threaten to leave a city....etc if they aren't given tax incentives, a new stadium and so on. Is that ideal? No but that's how things work.
They can say 'you can't give me a good deal? Fine, I'll go to someone who can'. That is very different than 'We gave you $10,000 for your campaign. We strongly feel that Tesla should not be able to sell cars in Texas'. Would the high road mean saying please to the politicians and hoping things change? That doesn't appear to be working very well.
If SpaceX has equally attractive offers from other states and they can teach Texas legislators a lesson at the same time, why not? Tesla has a valid free-market argument to operate in the state and were denied. Why exactly would SpaceX want to risk operating here more than they already do if they don't have to?
Krugerrand
Meow
Semantics?
Agreed, from our perspective it's a selfish (that's a rather kind word to choose) play by the auto dealers vs an altruistic play by Mr. Musk. From their perspective, they obviously don't see it that way. Whether they truly believe their business model is better or are simply delusional that their business model is better, the fact remains they believe Tesla threatens it and therefore their livelihood. If a man *thinks* you're going to take food off his table...beware.
Established people are notoriously (in general) afraid of change. This would be a drastic change. If Tesla reaches its primary goal of accelerating the world's adoption of EV's and it succeeds with the current this business model of selling EV's directly to customers, understand the future implications for auto dealers and their businesses. It will devastate them. Frankly, I'm most surprised that few people have understood the implication of Tesla Service Centers being ordered to work on 0% profit. That is mindboggling!
Anyway, you've raised a valid point. It still feels a bit too much like 'bribery' to me. I trust that Mr. Musk will do what's best long term for SpaceX.
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Well, lots of people would. LOL! But I see your point.
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Yes, it is hypocritical regardless of the fact 'that's how things work'. Just because it works that way, doesn't mean it should work that way and doesn't mean we should continue to let things work that way or support it. But then I'm often unrealistic about my expectations of man.
Or they can say; You're unable to give me a better deal? Okay, thank you. Have a nice day. See the difference?
That's not at all what you presented. Don't change the context now to suit your argument.
It's my understanding that SpaceX doesn't have equally as attractive offers from other states, but again, I believe SpaceX should do what's best for SpaceX and if that's Texas, so be it. If it's not...so be that too. Linking the outcome of SpaceX's new Launchpad to Tesla's dealer issues isn't something I support, no matter how much I want to see the stick shoved up those politician's butts. And frankly it's akin to the idea suggested that we all boycott then entire state of NC because of that other bill passing. We should punish the many because of the few? Really?
Florida....NASA may have a sale and Florida allows tesla sales.
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I don't see the difference. 'Okay, thank you' depending on how it's said and with the threat of pulling a multimillion dollar project out of the state means the same thing regardless of how nice you say it.
I didn't change my argument but thanks for saying I did so. Do you have the details of the negotiations, the tax incentives and deals that SpaceX has negotiated with Texas and the other states? I don't but if you do, please enlighten us. Texas has made a business decision that the income from the dealership lobby is more important that their relationship with Elon Musk and Tesla. The fact that Elon Musk is also the CEO of SpaceX is not a secret. Elon Musk as CEO of SpaceX has every right to move the space port wherever he wants to and can let the state legislators know why he is doing so. He can't legally link the two I'm sure but he can let them know that he no longer feels Texas offers the right business environment for SpaceX given the way they are treating Tesla. Nothing immoral going on there, not sure what your problem with that is.
If Elon Musk determines this has soured his experience with the state and he can get a deal that works for SpaceX (maybe it isn't as good but if he trusts the people he is working with more it might be better). Isn't an 'offer' from a state exactly what you are against? That is a form of a bribe in a sense. 'Come to our state and we will give you $100 million off in taxes over 10 years'. Shouldn't they simply send SpaceX a thank you card for locating their space port in their state by your standards?
This whole experience in Texas, NC and other states is a valuable lesson. You can wish it is simply a matter of being correct in your argument and presenting the facts that move things forward but that's not how things work. You can and should push to make the system better but until you eliminate campaign donations at all levels I'm not sure how you'll make that happen. Until that day happens you have to play in the sandbox you are given and that means using whatever legal leverage you have to push your business forward. If Elon Musk can locate a suitable location for his spaceport outside of Texas given his experience with the state legislators here then he should go for it. Putting it here unless the 'deal' (which you seem to hate) is head and shoulders above the rest or the physical location of the Texas makes it ideal launch site just rewards the bad behavior you dislike.
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Krugerrand
Meow
Okay. No sense continuing the discussion then since we don't have a common ground of understanding.
Yes you did. You added qualifying statements after the fact, which changed the argument on that specific point.
Only that which everyone is privy to. My understanding is that Texas has the most to offer in the moment and thusly why they've been the front runner all along.
An offer and a bribe are not the same. There's a difference of feeling, intent and legality.
Offer:
Present something for acceptance or rejection: to attempt to give somebody something that may be taken or refused, usually something desirable
Have something for use of others: to provide something, or make something available for those who want it
Volunteer to do something: to suggest doing something yourself as a favor for somebody else
Bribe:
Persuade somebody with enticement: to give somebody money or some other incentive to do something, especially something illegal or dishonest
No you don't. You can create your own sandbox. That's what Tesla is doing and why the uproar.
I agree. I have no idea what you are asking for. I did not change my argument. I started with
so very little detail there. I added clarification as the discussion progressed. That first post wasn't changed later or edited. What Texas is doing accepting campaign contributions from the dealership lobby to defeat Tesla and against the interest of Texans should not be rewarded. This is not calling for a ban on buying products from Texas so not sure why you equate that with a call to boycott NC products.
I realize an offer and a bribe are not the same thing, thank you for that. A state giving a tax incentive is real money. It's legal so that's the difference between an 'offer' and a bribe in this case. If Texas can throw together more millions of dollars in tax breaks than other states can then that is legal and how businesses and state governments work here. If you want to make all deals of this kind illegal then fine but that's not the case here. Companies don't always take the best offer as other factors come into play (location, business relationships with the state, workforce quality..etc).
There is one sandbox and the state legislators control it and determine what is legal and what isn't. How is Elon letting Texas know that the Tesla legislation is important to him and that he is not sure if he wants to also put a SpaceX spaceport in the state given the way his other company has been treated a bribe or illegal?
Also, how would you suggest Tesla solve this problem in the next 6 years (three legislative sessions) without applying legal pressure? They or Elon and Tesla supporters can either start political donations greater than what the dealer lobby is doing or make the legislators determine if their support of the dealerships potentially costing them a space port due to the bad faith and feelings the Tesla deal caused among the CEO of both companies is worth it. By 'teach a lesson' I didn't say Elon should directly threaten them saying 'you pass this Tesla bill or I'll make you pay' but he can indicate how important both issues are to him. Nothing wrong or illegal with that. If you feel simply saying please when the other side isn't using the same rules will win the day then we will be looking at a long road to things getting changed here. Only after Tesla has delivered maybe 50-100 thousand cars in Texas and someone politically powerful gets angry about the service Tesla can't provide given the laws here would something possibly get changed.
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Can someone put this situation into simple words where exactly is the problem?
How is TX government stopping some Joe from TX going on the internets, asking TM 'gimme one' and then walking to the bank to pay for the car directly on TM account?
How is TX government stopping some Joe from TX going on the internets, asking TM 'gimme one' and then walking to the bank to pay for the car directly on TM account?
The Texas dealership association over the decades has gotten favorable laws and regulations passed that protect franchised dealerships from any outside competition (meaning an auto manufacturer can't sell a car directly to a customer in Texas). They aren't stopping a Texas customer from doing what you are saying but they are preventing Tesla for telling customers how much their car costs at their stores, offering test drives and from providing Ranger service in Texas as well.
This is funny
Texas Auto Dealers Association Legislative Update
Like legislation, they overdo HDR photography to make the sky above the Capitol look dark and ominous. Represents their power over the legislators I guess.
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jeff_adams
Member
Elon has a lot better things to do than spend his time fighting dealer associations in various states. I recommend he hire a legal team to stand on inter-state commerce laws. They might have to sue a few states, but all they need is one victory to shut down the nonsense. Push this up to the highest court in the shortest time and get it settled
Whenever a politician uses the word "free" be very skeptical. In fact, whenever you hear a politician say anything at all, be very skeptical.
Also, the United States of America is still pretty much just that: a union of states. From where I live (Europe) we often think of the USA as a single country, just like France is a single country. But in many aspects the USA is more like the EU, which each part having its own laws and regulations.
I wonder how much hassle Tesla is going to get selling cars in Europe. We surely must have some obscure car laws in at least a few countries in Europe.
I am not surprised by this at all - it takes time to build consensus on these things and this bill was very last minute for this session.
Imagine during the next election cycle how the representatives would be attacked by their opponents: "supported a liberal California company over longstanding locally owned Texas businesses" - this would not play well to the majority of Texans who are ignorant about Tesla and EVs in general. This does not make them all corrupt.
If a Texas business tried the same thing in California there would likely equal reluctance due to the fact that there are conflicting ideologies involved. IMO, The sooner Tesla is accepted as a mainstream company and not just a "green" (Texans read this as "liberal") company - the better off they will be, and that starts by people on these forums not constantly making Tesla into a champion for liberal ideologies by bashing those who expected Tesla to fail. They were wrong - we are all better off that they were, but why rub conservatives nose in it? That doesn't help Tesla get the broad appeal it needs to truly succeed.
I think it is very likely that Tesla will be successful with this legislation (hopefully without the selling limits) in 2015 once Tesla has grown and the ignorance in Texas has been corrected by healthy dialogue and widespread adoption of this fantastic technology.
Imagine during the next election cycle how the representatives would be attacked by their opponents: "supported a liberal California company over longstanding locally owned Texas businesses" - this would not play well to the majority of Texans who are ignorant about Tesla and EVs in general. This does not make them all corrupt.
If a Texas business tried the same thing in California there would likely equal reluctance due to the fact that there are conflicting ideologies involved. IMO, The sooner Tesla is accepted as a mainstream company and not just a "green" (Texans read this as "liberal") company - the better off they will be, and that starts by people on these forums not constantly making Tesla into a champion for liberal ideologies by bashing those who expected Tesla to fail. They were wrong - we are all better off that they were, but why rub conservatives nose in it? That doesn't help Tesla get the broad appeal it needs to truly succeed.
I think it is very likely that Tesla will be successful with this legislation (hopefully without the selling limits) in 2015 once Tesla has grown and the ignorance in Texas has been corrected by healthy dialogue and widespread adoption of this fantastic technology.
TXjak
Owner/Investor/Advocate
So far TX has not tried to stop internet sales, unlike NC. All of the hundreds of Teslas in TX were purchased that way through the Tesla Motors website. The cars were essentially purchased FOB California and shipped to the purchaser. What TX prohibits is a car manufacturer from owning a dealership and that's what the bills in TX were trying to change. The Tesla stores in TX are not allowed to do what dealerships do, so they cannot give you a test drive or sell you a car. They can inform and educate you on the car and let you sit in one, but that's about it. Tesla wants to be able to run their stores more like Apple or Ikea stores.
I'm not a politician, but from what I've seen it is much easier for politicians to kill bills than pass them. I testified at the Senate hearing on TX SB 1659 (the Senate equivalent of HB 3351) and it was obvious that Senator Dan Patrick was against the bill. It turns out that he's also received the most contributions from the TX Dealers Association. In order to overcome this kind of resistance, it may take an effort at the polling place. If there were to be a federal lawsuit, however, some of the current legislation might be overturned.
If anyone has seen the new Great Gatsby, I thought these lyrics from one of the Jay-Z songs fits perfectly with this situation:
"Politicians all move for money, what the hell are we callin' them?
Low life, I'm crawlin' out, 911 I Porsched it out
Y'all niggas so hypocrites, y'all know what this stuff is all about
100 dolla, 100 dolla bill real, uh"
"Politicians all move for money, what the hell are we callin' them?
Low life, I'm crawlin' out, 911 I Porsched it out
Y'all niggas so hypocrites, y'all know what this stuff is all about
100 dolla, 100 dolla bill real, uh"
As frustrating as it is to see the bill fail, this is a very good job of explaining the Texans point of view. Tesla is a disruptive force in the car business.
Texas is conservative but Texans are not stupid. It will take time, but Tesla will prevail there.
If Texas really is the best place for Space X to thrive, I think Elon should stay there. What has a better chance of changing a future vote in the house? A car maker who got denied and then does retribution via pullout of another venture? Or a car maker who's sister company happens to be doing a lot in the state for the economy and providing jobs? His influence will increase as he has closer relations to this important state.
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
Just to throw my two cents in, this defeat is hardly a disaster for Tesla, just like the legislation in North Carolina isn't.
People underestimate the power of American mythology in the Tesla story. It's been a myth in America for decades now that "the car companies" and the "oil companies" have been conspiring to destroy promising new companies and technologies. In every part of the country, the legend of the lone inventor building a new kind of car that can run on water or potatoes (or whatever) is practically universal. Fundamentally, its an outlaw genius who is being suppressed by the government or Big Oil, or Detroit, and usually all three.
In Texas and much of the South a related mythology often is expressed with tales about outlaw Moonshiners defying the authorities and outracing the cops in their Moonshine powered home built hot rods. Make no mistake, the Moonshine powered hot rods are a key part of the story. A crafty outlaw driving a better car, powered by something better than oil, being oppressed by "The Man."
I could go on and on about the American ideal of fairness, or the tendency to root for an underdog, and even more ancient strands of outlaw mythology. Preston Tucker is a hero for a reason. John Delorean isn't any kind of hero (although there were plenty of popular conspiracy theories explaining his fall), but there is a reason that Hollywood slapped a fusion generator into a Delorean and ended up with a megahit movie.
So from my point of view, these types of obviously unfair moves by many of the states are probably some of the most effective advertising for Tesla in the history of advertising. North Carolina is not a critical market for Tesla. Under current law Tesla is doing ok in Texas regardless. The only practical effect of these moves is to help Tesla build up an enormous level of street cred with the American people as Tesla becomes a living avatar of outlaw genius legends.
People underestimate the power of American mythology in the Tesla story. It's been a myth in America for decades now that "the car companies" and the "oil companies" have been conspiring to destroy promising new companies and technologies. In every part of the country, the legend of the lone inventor building a new kind of car that can run on water or potatoes (or whatever) is practically universal. Fundamentally, its an outlaw genius who is being suppressed by the government or Big Oil, or Detroit, and usually all three.
In Texas and much of the South a related mythology often is expressed with tales about outlaw Moonshiners defying the authorities and outracing the cops in their Moonshine powered home built hot rods. Make no mistake, the Moonshine powered hot rods are a key part of the story. A crafty outlaw driving a better car, powered by something better than oil, being oppressed by "The Man."
I could go on and on about the American ideal of fairness, or the tendency to root for an underdog, and even more ancient strands of outlaw mythology. Preston Tucker is a hero for a reason. John Delorean isn't any kind of hero (although there were plenty of popular conspiracy theories explaining his fall), but there is a reason that Hollywood slapped a fusion generator into a Delorean and ended up with a megahit movie.
So from my point of view, these types of obviously unfair moves by many of the states are probably some of the most effective advertising for Tesla in the history of advertising. North Carolina is not a critical market for Tesla. Under current law Tesla is doing ok in Texas regardless. The only practical effect of these moves is to help Tesla build up an enormous level of street cred with the American people as Tesla becomes a living avatar of outlaw genius legends.
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