Brexit

[Singer3000]

I'm sorry, have you seen our healthcare industry?

Our healthcare industry literally consists of people begging for the money to pay for life-saving treatments, because insurance won't cover enough of it. (And I don't just mean the otherwise indigent, either, but they shouldn't have to beg either. I mean, like, get cancer, and someone with insurance can be knocked out of the upper-middle-class straight into bankruptcy and poverty, easily.)

Our healthcare industry causes employers to not hire people because of the ludicrous cost of insurance they're required to buy for those people, even as the insurance doesn't cover anywhere near enough for the employee to actually afford to use it.

Our healthcare industry drives people to suicide because they don't want to burden their family with medical bills. (Meanwhile, our healthcare industry releases propaganda through our news media claiming that implementing a system like the NHS in the US would cause "unelected government bureaucrats" to form "death panels" that decide whether you get to live or die. Never mind that those death panels already exist in the for-profit healthcare industry.)

They're perfectly right to not want the NHS privatized by our healthcare industry.

You illustrate my point for me perfectly. All a free trade deal between the US and UK would do is allow US firms to bid for contracts tendered by the NHS that are ALREADY being conducted by the private sector but currently being monopolised by European providers. Such medical care is still being provided free at the point of use under the socialised NHS model and the patient is utterly oblivious to what’s happening in the accounts department.

The sad and simple truth is that it’s almost impossible to talk even with educated and rational people about efficiency in the NHS, without triggering them into rants about for example, death panels and patients being driven to suicide.

 

[Buckminster]

You illustrate my point for me perfectly. All a free trade deal between the US and UK would do is allow US firms to bid for contracts tendered by the NHS that are ALREADY being conducted by the private sector but currently being monopolised by European providers. Such medical care is still being provided free at the point of use under the socialised NHS model and the patient is utterly oblivious to what’s happening in the accounts department.

The sad and simple truth is that it’s almost impossible to talk even with educated and rational people about efficiency in the NHS, without triggering them into rants about for example, death panels and patients being driven to suicide.

Yup, US involvement won't change anything. NHS provides average care for average value for money. They try very hard but organisation is held back by IT systems etc. Not unlike Tesla, Neroden would say....

Down to the final 4 candidates. Rory Stewart (out) may not have done as well as he could have because he was giving Boris too hard a time.... The 3 are already auditioning for jobs in Boris' cabinet on national TV. Boris moving slightly towards a more centrist position on Brexit - now that he has the job and the right in the bag. He doesn't need to worry about Farage as long as Brexit completes before 2022.

Lib Dems looking good with Chuka Ummuna on board. Labour - basket case.

 

[Buckminster]

Just Boris and Hunt remaining. Boris has made his first significant mistake - neighbour called police after hearing an argument with his girlfriend. Won't change anything.

 

[RobStark]

Just Boris and Hunt remaining. Boris has made his first significant mistake - neighbour called police after hearing an argument with his girlfriend. Won't change anything.

Girlfriend said neighbor is an anti-Brexit leftie trying to stir up trouble for Boris.

I don't think it will switch any dues paying members of the Conservative Party.

 

[neroden]

Yup, US involvement won't change anything. NHS provides average care for average value for money.

International studies actually say the NHS provides slightly-above-average care (close enough to average) for *much better than average* value for money. Just FYI.

They try very hard but organisation is held back by IT systems etc. Not unlike Tesla, Neroden would say....

Heh.

 

[EVNow]

Just Boris and Hunt remaining. Boris has made his first significant mistake - neighbour called police after hearing an argument with his girlfriend. Won't change anything.

Looks like after Trump survived so many scandals, all politician are going to ride through the scandal and see what happens. Newspapers no longer have the ability to make politicians drop out by writing endlessly about scandals.

This holds good for Boris as well as Biden.

 

[neroden]

Boris has got enough Teflon and enough of a record of genuine kindness that he may ride through scandals. Boris is a man who personally stopped a mugging which he happened to encounter while on his bicycle.

Biden... doesn't have anything like that, and has a *lot* of nasty stuff on his record, ranging from support for segregation to harassment of women reporting sexual harassment.

 

[Fact Checking]

No, once a decision is made, it’s made! Changing it, even in the face of new information, would be UNDEMOCRATIC!!1!
(Brexit)

Do you mean the decision by voters to enter the EU in 1975 by an overwhelming majority of 67% was changed by an undemocratic BRExit vote in 2016, which only gained a slim 51% majority?

 

[Chocochip]

Do you mean the decision by voters to enter the EU in 1975 by an overwhelming majority of 67% was changed by an undemocratic BRExit vote in 2016, which only gained a slim 51% majority?

You’re spelling “the will of 17 million British people” wrong.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Do you mean the decision by voters to enter the EU in 1975 by an overwhelming majority of 67% was changed by an undemocratic BRExit vote in 2016, which only gained a slim 51% majority?

The UK voters never voted to enter the EU.

 

[Fact Checking]

The UK voters never voted to enter the EU.

The EU was called the "European Economic Community" back then, and yes, UK voters voted in a 1975 referendum to stay in the EEC, with a 67% majority:

1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum - Wikipedia​

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The EU was called the "European Economic Community" back then, and yes, UK voters voted in a 1975 referendum to stay in the EEC, with a 67% majority:

1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum - Wikipedia​

It wasn't the EU.

 

[renim]

International studies actually say the NHS provides slightly-above-average care (close enough to average) for *much better than average* value for money. Just FYI.


Heh.

My sister was incapacitated, conscious and could feel the pain while having a caeserian when she lived in the UK.
They also ignored her very painful cryptosporidium/giardia type infection that was trivially treated with 'antibiotics' back in Australia, 2 years of waking up and crying at night in the UK. Trivial to medicate. neither outcomes would've entered UK's stats.

 

[nwdiver]

My sister was incapacitated, conscious and could feel the pain while having a caeserian when she lived in the UK.
They also ignored her very painful cryptosporidium/giardia type infection that was trivially treated with 'antibiotics' back in Australia, 2 years of waking up and crying at night in the UK. Trivial to medicate. neither outcomes would've entered UK's stats.

Did she also go bankrupt and have to sell her home to pay her medial bills? Oh wait... you said UK not US... never mind....

 

[neroden]

My sister was incapacitated, conscious and could feel the pain while having a caeserian when she lived in the UK.
They also ignored her very painful cryptosporidium/giardia type infection that was trivially treated with 'antibiotics' back in Australia, 2 years of waking up and crying at night in the UK. Trivial to medicate. neither outcomes would've entered UK's stats.

There you are. The UK: average care, done on the cheap. (And yes, this level of irresponsibility by doctors IS average.)

Of course, in the US your sister would have had all of the above problems plus more, and would have been charged so much that she would have gone bankrupt. Because it's the US.

Australia has substantially better than average medical care if I remember the studies correctly....

 

[renim]

as an outsider, my view is that the core issue with USA healthcare is that profit is not maximized until there is curtailment. Even in 2007 the USA public healthcare was around 7% of GDP, the UK's public healthcare also around 7% of GDP. there another 9% of gdp spent on private healthcare in USA, vs another 2% in UK.

but thats a incorrect metric of performance, take my region, top 3 countries for medicine

each has widely varying amount of government to total%. Yet each offers far superior value than American health care. Better questions are, Why does Singapore have such a low health to GDP vs USA or UK. Or why do people live longer in Japan vs USA or UK?

partially the answer is because they have to deal with this

The problem with USA health was not solved by increasing the pot of government money available to pay for it. Its a more fundamental problem than that.

But the issue with NHS UK, aaagh, Where there is competition, there is no progress.

 

[renim]

There you are. The UK: average care, done on the cheap. (And yes, this level of irresponsibility by doctors IS average.)

Of course, in the US your sister would have had all of the above problems plus more, and would have been charged so much that she would have gone bankrupt. Because it's the US.

Australia has substantially better than average medical care if I remember the studies correctly....

In the UK, she could not get a second opinion, all it took was getting off the plane in Australia, going to a GP and getting a second opinion, then going to a chemist with the script in hand. Trivial.

In Australia, the anaesthetist has a broader choice of drugs to use. My sister has some natural resistance to the class of drugs that the NHS decreed is the most appropriate (presumably because they are the 'cheapest').

I can't speak of USA, but i presume people there can get second opinions and tell anaesthetist what not to use.

 

[nwdiver]

I can't speak of USA, but i presume people there can get second opinions and tell anaesthetist what not to use.

Sure... if you have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.... $$$$$$$$$$; But with $$ you can get anything anywhere....

If you don't have money you get what ever your insurer allows you to get.... which is usually what's cheapest... which usually mean no 2nd opinions

 

[renim]

here a second opinion is perhaps $100, perhaps free. eitherway that is not $$$
Australian health system: how it works - myDr.com.au

Can't do that in UK., can probably do that in USA.

If I want a GP who likes antibiotics (but doesn't like giving time off from work), I know where to go, If I want a GP who doesn't like antibiotics (but does like giving time off from work) I also where to go. On average, it works great.

 

[anon]

here a second opinion is perhaps $100, perhaps free. eitherway that is not $$$
Australian health system: how it works - myDr.com.au

Can't do that in UK., can probably do that in USA.

If I want a GP who likes antibiotics (but doesn't like giving time off from work), I know where to go, If I want a GP who doesn't like antibiotics (but does like giving time off from work) I also where to go. On average, it works great.

A couple of things about UK healthcare:
- We have private healthcare too*, and at a much more affordable price than the US. $100 sounds about right for an opinion from a private GP, maybe even too high in some places.
- Unless you are in a small area with only a single GP working at a particular location, often you can request a visit to a different GP at the same location if you want another opinion. At least, that's the way it works for me - I have 7 GPs to choose from. Usually they give me an appointment with whoever is free soonest, but I can request a specific person. On the other hand, a second opinion from a hospital consultant on a more serious problem would be harder to obtain from the NHS, and would require a cooperative GP who agrees that it is necessary.


* Private healthcare in the UK often doesn't cover serious emergencies, except in limited locations, and it would be unusual to find a private hospital equipped to handle injuries from a major accident. Ambulances that arrive after calling the 999 emergency number will always take people to NHS hospitals. However, non-emergency procedures are widely available in private hospitals across the country for much lower prices than the US. Private GP coverage isn't great in some areas, but it's a small country and most people should be able to find a private GP within say an hour's drive (this is quite a long way by UK standards!).