cheshire cat
Member
For general interest a summary of how not to do it from a continental perspective, Well balanced I thought. Theresa May’s error
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Brexit
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
My update:
No deal - 30%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 40%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 20%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 0%
No deal - 30%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 40%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 20%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 0%
EVNow
Well-Known Member
That makes zero sense. Accusing everyone who says Palestinians are also human beings "anti-semetic" isn't going help. We have the same idiotic thing happening on this side of the pond.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552
I'm just reflecting what I believe Blairite MPs are thinking.
cheshire cat
Member
You obviously don't know enough about the wider implications of what's going on over here beyond what Steptoe has to say, until you are better informed I suggest you don't confuse Palestine/Israel with Victorian Imperialism. This has nothing to do with Brexit. However maybe Corbin and Trump do seem to be at the extreme opposite ends of the stupidity scale.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Well, you don't know enough about what I know. I suggest you don't need to tell me what is imperialism / colonialism and what is apartheid.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Ofcourse, Blairite MPs will like nothing more than Corbyn gone.
The real issue is - there is a lot of anti-Semitism the world over (US/EU/ME). But by accusing anyone and everyone who is opposed to the current Israeli government policies as an anti-Semite, they have weaponized the word for their own political objectives rather than actually try to reduce the problem. Even as Jewish reporters I know continue to get floods of real hate mail daily. Just in the US - while everyone was bullying Omar to apologize for saying AIPAC pays money to get political influence (Republican leader threatened Omar and another Muslim rep on twitter !) - a dozen Republican senators/representatives sent obvious anti-Semitic messages (about Soros) - or because of what Trump said, an unhinged white supremacist gunned down people at a Synagogue.
Lets be clear here - within the Jewish community there is a clear divide on what is and what is not anti-Semitism. Hardliners want to call out anything progressives say about Israel as anti-Semitism, where as liberals do not.
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cheshire cat
Member
Not Brexit. I'll try to be more helpful Try this. The Corbyn crack-up | The Spectator Who knows you MAY actually learn something new
cheshire cat
Member
For general info. Talk about from the horses mouth-----this is the same Mr Soros who has spent a small fortune trying to keep the UK in EUSSR. Europe, Please Wake Up | by George Soros No I really do expect Fact Checking to be along soon-- once he gets over " the ultras' " whatever they are
May lost again yesterday in parliament but it hasn't changed very much. She is going back to Brussels next week. My expectation is that she will get changes but just days ahead of the 29th March. One big question - will she hold it all together or will something else stop her before then?
The discussion in parliament centres around "holding our nerve". Divorce or business deal?
My update:
No deal - 30%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 35%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 25%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 0%
The discussion in parliament centres around "holding our nerve". Divorce or business deal?
My update:
No deal - 30%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 35%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 25%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 0%
EVNow
Well-Known Member
That EUSSR is such a terrible terminology. Its like how Republicans called Obama a "commie". EU is essentially a pro-business venture. All the labor & environmental regulations are to bring enough people along.
cheshire cat
Member
Well Buckminster it looks like I'll have to clock on for the graveyard shift
. Very quite ' round here but here's an interesting one from the Emerald Isle -hot off the press, Editorial: 'EU cannot allow us to burn as may fiddles over brexit' - Independent.ie Ahhh E-uuuunity. P.s. Can you cover the w'kend as it looks like just me and you on Rota. Should be pretty quiet tho' cheers for now. P.p.s. Just found out where our friend acquired the term Ultras, must have had a recent trip to The Old Country.
. Very quite ' round here but here's an interesting one from the Emerald Isle -hot off the press, Editorial: 'EU cannot allow us to burn as may fiddles over brexit' - Independent.ie Ahhh E-uuuunity. P.s. Can you cover the w'kend as it looks like just me and you on Rota. Should be pretty quiet tho' cheers for now. P.p.s. Just found out where our friend acquired the term Ultras, must have had a recent trip to The Old Country.
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My update:
No deal - 15%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 50%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 20%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 5%
No deal - 15%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 50%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 20%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 5%
Mader Levap
Member
If you seriously claim European Union is same as old Soviet Union, you simply lose credibility.
- Last I heard, EU does not have communism as their favourite economic system.
- Last I heard, EU didn't suppressed dissent in countries with military might. In fact, it actually lets out countries that do not want to be there anymore. That was not option for countries within USSR.
- Last I heard, EU had democratically elected bodies.
cheshire cat
Member
Having lived largely thro' the Cold War I know exactly what went on, so don't take it as ignorance, you have to give us Brit' s a little slack for our style of (sometimes "wind up" humour). However there are many on your side of the channel who seem to think you live in paradise, indeed better than behind the iron curtain, which does not gel with the numbers of east Europeans who seem keen to live here ( and largely welcome) many are your countrymen. But please don't try to tell us what is best each to his own, and unlike many in Europe we don't believe in the right number of referenda to get the result required by higher authority, I can only point you at the above article by Mr Soros for an insight into what's going on, one which our state broadcaster is loath to illustrate, probably because of all the EU funds poured in over several years, a tequnique they have used to infiltrate all levels of society ( academia etc) to reinforce their democratic system at the taxpayers expense.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Just like Trump's base, Brexit base is essentially xenophobic. Have to just look at the pro-Brexit rags to see what animates the base.
cheshire cat
Member
Wow Trump really rattles your cage doesn't he? I see you haven't learnt much since your previous rants. I thought some of the above may help, obviously not. N.B. Not mine or even brexiteer opinions- but whatever.
Thanks to the European Union its members have gone though the longest uninterrupted period in history without a war. So yes, in that sense we have been living in paradise.
Ever since Margret "I want my money back" Thatcher you Brits always wanted special treatment within the EU so you have gotten enough slack. The EU has always bend over backwards and forwards to accommodate you and still it is not good enough. I was saddened to see you go but now I am glad. Europe can now go full steam ahead. I wish you all the best but I think you will be in for some hard times.
So, I personally could get behind a federal EU - especially if Jean Luc Picard is in charge. However, that is another significant fear behind Brexit that has not been discussed in the media much post Brexit. To get Brits on board, the intent of a federal EU needs to be said out loud. We need 50 years to think about it and prepare - we don't want to be boiled frogs. Also, EU politicians would need to be put in power directly by the people.
Well, we can always rejoin the EU down the line....
Singer3000
Member
Total nonsense. It is possible to believe that political decision making should be transparent, localised and accountable without being racist (or xenophobic as you try and politely term it). And in fact, what study after study has shown is that a desire for localised decision making was the number 1 motivating factor for Leave voters in 2016. You might hence argue that Brexit's principal cause was the EU's institutional failure to abide by its guiding principle of Subsidiarity.
Studies have found the second largest voting factor was a desire to control the country's borders. If you prefer to assume this is purely driven by racism then that's up to you. But I know many upper middle class people in international marriages (some with mixed race children) who voted for Brexit and the end of free movement, as the only viable path to reducing the inerrant discrimination in the immigration system against their non-European spouses.
It is true that the social group termed by political economists as "C2DE" (who I assume you are referring to) voted overwhelmingly for Brexit (2-1), far more so than the population overall. The C2DE group represents 45% of the UK population. If you think that there's that many racists (or xenophobes) in the UK, then I'd venture you have a myopic view of the people who live there. Of note, it's the C2DE group that has most suffered from stagnant real wage growth of the past decade, from asset price inflation (principally in housing) and overcrowded public services. They are also the least mobile component of the labour market, due to lower savings and education levels.
While the cause of each issue is complex, it's without doubt that:
- A major factor of stagnant real wage growth has been the effectively infinite labour supply of relatively cheap European workers from crisis hit economies prepared to work at the marginal rate. You'll note that the past 12-18 months have seen the first sustained real wage growth in the UK since the financial crisis, coinciding with the post-referendum fall in net EU - UK migration.
- Even if quantitative easing and poor tax/planning policies are the most guilty parties, UK asset price inflation has not been helped by the >10% increase in population since the Eastern Europe accession year of 2004. Some studies claim almost 80% of UK population growth up to 2027 will be attributable to net migration, either directly or indirectly.
- It's almost impossible to effectively plan long lead time infrastructure (railways, roads, hospitals, schools) or specialist training for government roles (doctors, nurses, teachers) if the reliability of your demographic forecasts is poor. Refer to UK government estimates of Eastern European immigration pre and post 2004. This is an intrinsic problem for freedom of movement, when mixed with a socially and economically attractive labour market such as the UK, which also suffers from high barriers to new infrastructure and an almost fully socialised health system.
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