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built in exta mileage with in the battery?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by fred z, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. fred z

    fred z Member

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    Hi guys and gals.
    Question: does anyone know for sure that there is actually extra miles built in to the battery after the 265 max limit? I had heard that there is a 17 mile bonus that is there in case one takes it to the limit before charging.
    True, not true?
    thanks
    fred z
     
  2. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    Don't count on any miles after you hit zero. There are some instances of driving past zero, but plenty of people have died right after zero.


    Definitely don't count on 17 miles.
     
  3. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    Also, the EPA rating of 265 miles is after driving the car until it physically stops moving. That represents the full range of battery charge that is available to drivers. Don't count on any miles past zero, and it's probably a good idea to plan your destinations to leave a 30-50 mile remaining range.
     
  4. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    Haven't heard of anyone dying at zero. The SOC gauge actually used to show ~4% at 0 rated miles, but that was changed with one of the updates so that 0% SOC aligns with 0 rated miles. I think it's completely reasonable to count on at least 5 miles below 0 from everything that I've read. Obviously don't plan your trip that way, but if push comes to shove, you can definitely eke out a few extra miles.
     
  5. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    there are no extra miles after 0. several have thought such and their car's shut down right after reaching 0.

    0 == 0.

    0 != 17.

    anybody getting extra mileage after 0 is just playing with fire.
     
  6. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    FW 5.8 had a reserve of about 15 miles, but I really doubt anybody is still on 5.8. Now, zero means zero.
     
  7. bluetinc

    bluetinc Member

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    #7 bluetinc, Oct 20, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
    Fredz

    We really have to talk energy here not miles, because as everyone knows, your mileage will vary, especially when the weather is bad. It gets a little complicated but the P/S85 cars are rated (when new) to drive 265 miles under the EPA test at which point the car stops moving. This equates to about 300 Wh/mi. Please note that we have seen these number vary a bit between various cars. According to a Tech response to another owner, when you are driving the cars reduce the miles remaining displayed to the driver at about a ~6% faster rate then the energy from the battery is actually used. On a long non-stop drive, you will be able to see that you need to drive about about ~284Wh/mi to have your actual miles driven equal the number decreased from the dashboard display, rather than the EPA "rated" energy usage. They then save this ~6% as reserve for the driver "below 0". This matches up with my experiences.

    I have been watching where "0" is on the battery through the software versions and have yet to see it move, though they have remapped the SOC/User Display to no longer show "below 0" energy on the SOC. I don't know of anyone doing any real testing of the amount of energy available below 0 to verify this as not many like to go there!

    Peter

    Yobigd20 and qwk, can you point to the stories that show 0 == 0? I've never seen that story, only some where there are other mechanical issues causing the car to stop, not the battery, or ones where the person drives some distance of miles after 0, but the amount of energy being used is unclear and under conditions that would push it much higher than normal. Further, if that were true that 0 is now 0, and the car must use less energy to drive to 0 then shown necessary for the EPA testing, then it would not be legitimate for Tesla to still claim a range of 265 under the EPA test if the car can no longer make it.
     
  8. tom66

    tom66 Member

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    If there is any reserve, it's calculated in the 265 miles starting range.
    Example, the car shows 265 miles but might have 255 miles real range until it goes to 0, then 10 miles below that.
     
  9. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    here's one thread: - Caution about Vegas to LA trip!!
     
  10. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    There has never been a change in range from 265 rated miles, just how it's displayed. On FW 5.8 the yellow bar would appear at ~31 rated miles and at 50% charge it would show ~115 rated. Now the yellow appears at about 51 rated, and 50% is 131 rated miles(for my car anyway). Tesla keeps changing the algo for the rated range display.
     
  11. Msolomi

    Msolomi Member

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    Guys, I learned this the hard way this weekend. 0 under the new software, means essentially 0. I may have gone 2 miles, but at 0 the car gave me a message that said "pull over for safety, your car is about to shut off" and it did in fact shut off. I was counting on having an extra 5 miles to get to my house and I did not. Embarrassingly, I had to get towed to my house 3 miles away. In the past, I had driven with about 7 miles after 0. I think now 0 means 0. I'm running the last build of 6.0 (i believe its .42).
     
  12. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    You also understand that running the battery to zero on a regular basis is stressing the battery and your usage scenario will promote a higher battery degradation, right?
     
  13. Msolomi

    Msolomi Member

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    Of course, I understand. In almost 2 years, it has only happened 2x and this is the first time the car shut down. The prior time, I missed an exit and had to do a 110 charge. So, of course.
     
  14. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    Thread seems to indicate they got 4 more miles. They point out that they were coasting downhill at this point, but this clearly was not the case as you would be regening and actually increasing the available energy. I doubt some of these reports as they will vary depending on how people are counting miles and driving style. Obviously, as bluetinc points out we ought to talk about kWh remaining and not miles remaining. I am still convinced there is some (but not much) of a reserve below zero. If I end up reaching 0 rated at some point and my car shuts down immediately after displaying 0, then I'll come back here and eat my words.

    Huh, so perhaps this changed with 6.0? IMHO, Tesla really does need to document changes like these in the release notes.
     
  15. bluetinc

    bluetinc Member

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    #15 bluetinc, Oct 20, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2014
    Do you by chance have a 60? I've only tracked my 85 and a couple of other 85s, but I do know the 60 has totally different numbers. I thought I had roughed out the numbers and it didn't look like there was much of a buffer on the 60s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If you double check the link you will see they drove 4 miles past 0 in a 60. Perhaps you were thinking of another story?

     
  16. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    I went 'over' three times. Once 1.5 miles, once 4.5 miles and once about 9 miles.
    The max I got out of the battery when reaching zero was 76.5 kWh which is exactly 90% (of 85). It seems, based on stories from many other people, the car will go down to 5% battery capacity and then shut down. But it might depend on temperature as well. I never planned or counted on going passed zero, it just happened and I'm happy the car let me.

    Going towards zero is bad for the battery. Once you have less then 50 miles left, I would recommend going easy on the accelerator and in general, always plan some buffer.

    The problem is that most people don't pay any attention until it gets close. Then it's too late for a plan B. In reality you don't run out of juice 'all of a sudden'. If you keep an eye on battery and your remaining trip you can see it coming. If it looks like it's going to be very tight, I would highly recommend to look for an alternative, a charger way ahead of time, not just at the very end. If there is a charger 1/3 into your trip, use it if you know it might be tight at the end. It's much healthier for the battery and it will safe you from risking to be stranded.
     
  17. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I did that yesterday. Had three adult passengers for a 248 mile round trip with rolling hills (rolling hills accounted for about 1/3 of the trip). I had a plan B at the 3/4 mark but ended up not having to use it and arrived with 51 miles rated range showing. The App showed 255 after the range charge.
     
  18. giants2001

    giants2001 Member

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    I wish this were the case. I just hit 30K miles on my 60. Woohoo. Unfortunately I had my first experience with running out of juice on a busy freeway. Not a fun lesson. I've driven between Harris Ranch and Tejon Ranch several times, and I knew there was a slight elevation gain just before reaching the superchargers at Tejon. What I had not taken into consideration this time was the new version of firmware installed on the car. So literally about 1000ft before the exit and with 4 rated miles shows on the dashboard, my car shutdown. And it was fast (about 30 seconds). I was lucky that I pulled over to the shoulder of the freeway when I did, because otherwise I might have been in a quite a bit of trouble.

    After a long chat and a review of the logs with Tesla, it was determined that the car shut down early because it predicted that it could not sustain the current speed (70mph) with the amount of charge left on the battery (whatever equates to 4 rated miles). What bugs me is that they let an algorithm preemptively shut me down. I'm all for saving the battery, but not knowing what the "real" 0 is anymore really sucks.

    So be careful. 0 isn't necessarily 0. It's more like 0 +/-5 (maybe 10). Which means if you dip below 10 miles of rated range, and without knowing exact state of charge, you're rolling the dice. Just thought I'd share!


     
  19. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    Ouch. So 4 means 0. lol. I know someone whose shut down at I think it was 8. But yea we really shouldn't take it down below 10 or 20 really just in case.
     
  20. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    I don't care where the danger zone is; just tell us where to be concerned. It could be below 10 rated miles, below 0, or even below -10, but Tesla should just tell us at what point to be worried, and not change the "danger region".
     

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