Bummer for those who paid for self drive.

[MXWing]

Elon just said seconds ago... FSD can still be purchased off menu.

It works as a discount against the future cost when Tesla is ready to sell it. Sounds like in a few months.

 

[crackers8199]

Elon just said seconds ago... FSD can still be purchased off menu.

It works as a discount against the future cost when Tesla is ready to sell it. Sounds like in a few months.

where? i don't see anything on twitter...

 

[Canuck]

puffery wouldn't really apply here because i don't believe you can make the argument that "no reasonable person" would have taken their claim that the car had all the hardware needed for full autonomy seriously.

Call me unreasonable then!

But I do get your point. While at the same time, people better understand that Tesla is full of puffery which is a shame since they have such an outstanding product as is.

The point I was trying to make is that no one can even form a binding contract on the issue based on the very basic principles of contract law.

I think crackers8199 *has* consideration - namely the purchase of the car.

That's only consideration for the car you bought! It's not "future consideration" by any stretch of the imagination and certainly not at law. Plus, good luck with getting any parol evidence admitted. I doubt the court would even hear it since you agreed the contract is the complete contract with no other representations. Yet you argue different from what you agreed to? Did you even read your contract?:

Prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding. We may assign this Agreement at our discretion to one of our affiliated entities.

 

[Knightshade]

Elon just said seconds ago... FSD can still be purchased off menu.

It works as a discount against the future cost when Tesla is ready to sell it. Sounds like in a few months.

Yup- he said it'll continue to be available off-menu for anybody who buys going forward- not going "away" at all- and was removed from the configurator entirely because they had a lot of buyers not understanding the difference between EAP and FSD during the sales process.

Which given a lot higher % of buyers now probably aren't big enthusiasts roaming the forums makes sense.

 

[Knightshade]

where? i don't see anything on twitter...

On the investor call- it's streaming live now

Also said the HW swap for 2.x cars takes under 30 minutes and they're still on track to have the chip in production by end of Q1 19

 

[HeavyAaron]

That's only consideration for the car you bought! It's not "future consideration" by any stretch of the imagination and certainly not at law. Plus, good luck with getting any parol evidence admitted. I doubt the court would even hear it since you agreed the contract is the complete contract with no other representations. Yet you argue different from what you agreed to? Did you even read your contract?:

Instead of worrying about what I have or have not read, perhaps you should worry about what you have not read. I explicitly stated that it is not in the contract, and I have been stating that there was not sufficient implication of it being part of the sale.

 

[crackers8199]

Yup- he said it'll continue to be available off-menu for anybody who buys going forward- not going "away" at all- and was removed from the configurator entirely because they had a lot of buyers not understanding the difference between EAP and FSD during the sales process.

Which given a lot higher % of buyers now probably aren't big enthusiasts roaming the forums makes sense.

if that's the case, then i can't imagine they're going to pull it from our accounts as an upgrade either.

 

[Knightshade]

if that's the case, then i can't imagine they're going to pull it from our accounts as an upgrade either.

Nope.

But it does let them raise the price for future buyers at any time since the "menu" saying you can buy it later for X will no longer be there.

 

[Canuck]

Instead of worrying about what I have or have not read, perhaps you should worry about what you have not read. I explicitly stated that it is not in the contract, and I have been stating that there was not sufficient implication of it being part of the sale.

I'm not worried about anything. I quoted what you wrote and stated my position:

I think crackers8199 *has* consideration - namely the purchase of the car.

That's only consideration for the car you bought

Then I quoted the contract which confirms my point. If you have a different view than what you post, that's odd, but fine. I'm only dealing with what you said in your quote. I don't read every one of your comments, or anyone's for that matter. So please calm down. There's no need to be rude when debating an issue.

Yup- he said it'll continue to be available off-menu for anybody who buys going forward- not going "away" at all- and was removed from the configurator entirely because they had a lot of buyers not understanding the difference between EAP and FSD during the sales process.

And we believe that? I think the lawyers and reality of selling FSD without hardware that can do it is the real reason.

Also said the HW swap for 2.x cars takes under 30 minutes and they're still on track to have the chip in production by end of Q1 19

If only I had a dime for everything said on an investors conference that never came true... remember when 2.0 was FSD, then 2.5 is, and now it's 30 minutes for the swap out of 2.5 to 3.0... fool me once....

This is like a debate about the existence of god. I really want it to be true, and did believe for a while, but reality now tells me otherwise.

 

[Knightshade]

And we believe that? I think the lawyers and reality of selling FSD without hardware that can do it is the real reason.

If that were the case they'd just stop selling it.

What they said today was they're not doing that- they simply took it off the website- it's still for sale you just have to ask for it.

So yes we believe it- because any other explanation wouldn't have that result.

If only I had a dime for everything said on an investors conference that never came true... remember when 2.0 was FSD, then 2.5 is, and now it's 30 minutes for the swap out of 2.5 to 3.0... fool me once....

This is like a debate about the existence of god. I really want it to be true, and did believe for a while, but reality now tells me otherwise.

This isn't an existential debate on capability of a system they haven't actually made yet- it's a physical HW swap of a something designed to be swapped....so those comparisons are pretty nonsensical.

In reality swapping a modular computer piece is incredibly quick and easy.

Every major PC company in the world does it thousands of times a day for their enterprise customers with field techs.

So yes- it's far more believable that it'd only 30 minutes or less than the idea it'd take hours.

 

[PhilDavid]

Obviously they took it off the Web site because they don't want to sell it as the product exists now.

Anyone who has followed Tesla for a while know that when they put something on a "menu" what they put on the menu is about to be discontinued.

They will surely offer Self Driving or similar option in the future but we don;t know how it will be defined or priced. People buying FSD are hedging their bets that by buying now, they can lock in the price and what was advertised.

If we had a FSD capable car, we certainly would make sure to buy FSD now as who knows how it will be priced in the future or even if it is available.

 

[Canuck]

If that were the case they'd just stop selling it.

Not in my view since that amounts to an admission of liability. This way, they can try to have it both ways, with the "confusion" explanation -- yet it's not confusing to everyone I know who has ordered a Tesla. The only confusing thing about it is the FSD video they showed us, and now it apparently doesn't work with current hardware. Now that's confusing!

What they said today was they're not doing that- they simply took it off the website- it's still for sale you just have to ask for it.

Yes, so they can have it both ways. Sell very few to stop the class action size, while still selling it, and we all know that's just a game since people who can't see it don't know about it. It's crazy talk.

So yes we believe it- because any other explanation wouldn't have that result.

You do. I have another explanation, set out above.

This isn't an existential debate on capability of a system they haven't actually made yet- it's a physical HW swap of a something designed to be swapped....so those comparisons are pretty nonsensical.

We're not talking about swapping out hardware. We're talking about FSD. There is no FSD Tesla in existence! (like god). So it's existential to me -- unless you believe the FSD video on AP2.0 that Tesla has now admitted can't be done with that hardware. That's what's nonsensical in my view.

In reality swapping a modular computer piece is incredibly quick and easy.
Every major PC company in the world does it thousands of times a day for their enterprise customers with field techs.
So yes- it's far more believable that it'd only 30 minutes or less than the idea it'd take hours.

Again, the swap out is not the issue. Believing Tesla that that swap out will result in FSD is the issue. Sorry, but after being told this will work, then this, then that, and now a simple 30 minute swap -- it's just getting too much for me to believe, even though I really want to.

If we had a FSD capable car, we certainly would make sure to buy FSD now as who knows how it will be priced in the future or even if it is available.

I have the money, and wouldn't even notice it if I paid for it, but I grew up without much (food even), and I've earned every dime I have by saving and investing wisely, and not on things that don't make sense, since I know a fool and his money are soon parted and I have no plans to part with my money foolishly for a promise of something that doesn't even exist, and won't exist for the foreseeable future. No thanks. I'll happily pay in full when the time comes that it really is FSD -- but I doubt that will ever happen for the life of my 3, let alone my own lifetime, and Tesla keeps proving me right.

 

[Reeler]

I bought a Nissan. They listed a bunch of dealer upgrades with pricing trying to upsell me. There was a certain logic to roll it into the loan. I came back a few months later and the price for the tow hitch option had increased. I complained insisting that the upgrade price should be valid forever.

Sounds kinda crazy. The price is the price when you purchase something, end of story. If the price of FSD weren't changing, why would they stop selling this option? That is the most logical conclusion as Tesla loves free loans from their customers (e.g., car deposits that don't even guarantee your place in line).

 

[Dr. J]

Why would you have another Tesla in a few years?

Two words: More cowbell.

 

[HeavyAaron]

I'm not worried about anything."

Then perhaps you should not ask what I have read and not read if you are not concerned about the answer.

If you have a different view than what you post, that's odd, but fine. I'm only dealing with what you said in your quote.

You responded to a hypothetical as if it wasn't a hypothetical.... I can't help you if you refuse to read.

I don't read every one of your comments, or anyone's for that matter. So please calm down.

From the VERY SAME post that you quoted:

"Now, I don't think those conditions were part of the sale contract. They certainly weren't made explicitly, and it is my contention that they were not (sufficiently / clearly) implied as to be binding. "




The guy who said:

Did you even read your contract?

gets upset when asked if he read what he was responding to with:

There's no need to be rude when debating an issue.

Okay....

 

[TT97]

Tesla is clearly reading this thread, EAP option on the config page now includes "After delivery prices subject to change."

 

[Mark Z]

During the wait for improved electronics, could Tesla add the USB dash camera capability for those who paid for 2.0 hardware with FSD?

In other words, could the unused FSD hardware be used to capture and process the dash camera images?

 

[insaneoctane]

I think anyone who was offered FSD for $3K during configuration has very good legal standing to expect to purchase it at $4K (or $5K for some) once it is actually functional. Your configurator clearly gave you 2 choices to decide between. It said $3K now or $4K later. Folks made their decision based on that information. If Tesla wanted more flexibility then they should have written the configurator differently (ie $3K now or $4K if ordered later* *Note: Post delivery prices subject to change.). I believe that any reasonable jury would agree that a reasonable person could expect to add FSD afterwards for $4K.

Hmmm... ."After delivery prices subject to change"

 

[TT97]

Hmmm... ."After delivery prices subject to change"

They added that language a while ago. I noticed it when they first removed the FSD option.

 

[Knightshade]

Yeah that's so they're no longer "locked" into the post-delivery price that existed whenever you purchased.