Burnt nema 14-50 plug and breaker tripped

[gilscales]

They asked if I wanted to wait and I said yes so I'm OK with waiting.

Ok sounds good, FYI I have been researching other outlets as there are valid concerns regarding build quality.

Although the Cooper 5754N are one of the 2 that Tesla suggests using I find it inferior to the Hubbell, after looking for specs on the Hubbell I ran across the Bryant 9450FR and found out that it is a newly redesigned outlet and that Bryant was bought by Hubbell in 1991, looking at the pictures and specs they appear to be identical in every way except branding, I have ordered some and will be comparing them to the Hubbell when all arrive, in the mean time here are some links.

https://www.mc-mc.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/ITEMS/EN/Hubbell_9450FR_Brochure.pdf

Bryant 50A 4W Single Receptacle 125/250VAC 14-50R BK 9450FR | Zoro.com

 

[gilscales]

So the 3 Byrant 9450FR receptacles I ordered off of Zoro.com arrived today and all I can say is WOW! (I just ordered another 12) what a deal for what is as far as I can tell a Hubbell hbl9450a with the Bryant name stamped on it so buy these up before they figure out they are selling them to cheap!

P.S. there is a sale on Zoro right now for 20% off of your order till 12/24 11:59 P.M., if you spend $50 or more you will also get free shipping, its a one time code "READY42019" so all you installers out there you better load up (@eprosenx i'm talking to you!)

This thing is truly a beast compared to any others made including the Cooper Tesla recommended one (I am surprised that Tesla even recommends anything other than the Hubbel/Bryant unit because it is that much better) the copper V box strap that is a MASSIVE conductor area and tightens like a vice at triple the torque of the others with a 3/16" Allen screw makes this one the obvious choice and no there is no excuse not to use this one as its CHEAP! links below.

Bryant 50A 4W Single Receptacle 125/250VAC 14-50R BK 9450FR | Zoro.com

P.P.S. don't forget to order the cover plate as theses are the 2.48" hole size so larger than the cover plates for the Home Depot Leviton model.

Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems Single Receptacle Plate, 2 Gang, Silver SS701 | Zoro.com

When the last Hubbell hbl9450a I ordered comes in I will show all 4 of these units posted together in another thread for all to see (Leviton, Cooper, Bryant and Hubbell)

P.P.P.S I now have 5 cooper units I am selling NIB so I guess @Feathermerchan was right after all, I was thinking eBay but maybe I should try Amazon?

 

[Feathermerchan]

Do I need a 4X4X2" box to fit the wiring and recepticle?

 

[eprosenx]

So the 3 Byrant 9450FR receptacles I ordered off of Zoro.com arrived today and all I can say is WOW! (I just ordered another 12) what a deal for what is as far as I can tell a Hubbell hbl9450a with the Bryant name stamped on it so buy these up before they figure out they are selling them to cheap!

P.S. there is a sale on Zoro right now for 20% off of your order till 12/24 11:59 P.M., if you spend $50 or more you will also get free shipping, its a one time code "READY42019" so all you installers out there you better load up (@eprosenx i'm talking to you!)

This thing is truly a beast compared to any others made including the Cooper Tesla recommended one (I am surprised that Tesla even recommends anything other than the Hubbel/Bryant unit because it is that much better) the copper V box strap that is a MASSIVE conductor area and tightens like a vice at triple the torque of the others with a 3/16" Allen screw makes this one the obvious choice and no there is no excuse not to use this one as its CHEAP! links below.

Bryant 50A 4W Single Receptacle 125/250VAC 14-50R BK 9450FR | Zoro.com

P.P.S. don't forget to order the cover plate as theses are the 2.48" hole size so larger than the cover plates for the Home Depot Leviton model.

Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems Single Receptacle Plate, 2 Gang, Silver SS701 | Zoro.com

When the last Hubbell hbl9450a I ordered comes in I will show all 4 of these units posted together in another thread for all to see (Leviton, Cooper, Bryant and Hubbell)

P.P.P.S I now have 5 cooper units I am selling NIB so I guess @Feathermerchan was right after all, I was thinking eBay but maybe I should try Amazon?

Nice!!!

So next up we need to figure out what kind of receptacle boxes are best for these.

Typically I would be doing remodel mount installs, though nothing that attached to Sheetrock would be ok I presume- still want to go into a stud.

But knowing a brand of box for new installs would be good too.

Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[gilscales]

Do I need a 4X4X2" box to fit the wiring and recepticle?

Need a box at least 2 1/8" deep as the receptacle depth is almost 1 7/8", with side terminals it will be fine but if you want to have extra room to work with there are several options you can get, say a 4S box with a mud ring adapter of 1/2" up to 1" or even a 4S box with an extension then a mud ring to give you the max room in the box, it would come in handy when running 4 gauge romex in a run over 150 ft. as it gets harder to bend the wire with that gauge.

 

[gilscales]

Nice!!!

So next up we need to figure out what kind of receptacle boxes are best for these.

Typically I would be doing remodel mount installs, though nothing that attached to Sheetrock would be ok I presume- still want to go into a stud.

But knowing a brand of box for new installs would be good too.

Anyone have any suggestions?

I think it would be best to get a 2 1/8" deep 4S box, after locating the stud you could cut a hole 4 1/8" square that lines up with the edge of the stud then carefully push the box through the hole until it is lined up with the back of the drywall, drive a couple of screws into the stud from the inside side of the box, put a 1/2" mud ring on and your good to go, now fishing a 6/3 Romex down through the wall and into the box could be the hardest part but most people like to mount their outlet 5 feet or more off of the floor so maybe is won't be that bad?

The Hubbell stainless cover plate is 4 9/16" so you would not even have to patch any drywall

This box
RACO 4 in. Raised Ground Welded Square Electrical Box-8232 - The Home Depot

With this mud ring
RACO 4 in. x 1/2 in. Raised Square 2-Device Mud Ring-8778 - The Home Depot
MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-202058342-_-100057123-_-N

Attach the wire to the box with a Romex clamp first then you will have a 4" square hole to fish the wire through, if you can gain access to the upper plates to drill through from above then you will be able to fish the wire thru without any damage to the drywall, but as you already know it's not always easy to get access to that top plate on the wall to drill through from above, it's why we have to budget so much for drywall repair in the places we do, looks like Swiss cheese by the time everyones done!

 

[Feathermerchan]

So I am going to build a frame of 2X4 and screw it to the ceiling in the garage as I park on the RH side. Then mount the box to the frame so I can reach to plug in the EVSE. This will put the socket about in the middle of the garage.
Wiring will be thru the ceiling and into the box. Looks like these sockets are made for the wiring to enter from below based on the terminals. I can run 6/3 Romex thru the attic (2 story) but will need a junction box and conduit to travel down the outside of the house to the panel. It is outside.
I'll modify or add another circuit if I get another electric car.
I can have 2 50A outlets on one circuit with a 50A breaker, right?

BTW Just ordered the Bryant socket, cover plate and 4X4X2 box from Zoro. I can get everything else from HD.

 

[miimura]

I can have 2 50A outlets on one circuit with a 50A breaker, right?

Absolutely not. You must put a switch so that only one is energized at a time. They make double throw (ON-OFF-ON) disconnects for this purpose.

 

[gilscales]

So I am going to build a frame of 2X4 and screw it to the ceiling in the garage as I park on the RH side. Then mount the box to the frame so I can reach to plug in the EVSE. This will put the socket about in the middle of the garage.
Wiring will be thru the ceiling and into the box. Looks like these sockets are made for the wiring to enter from below based on the terminals. I can run 6/3 Romex thru the attic (2 story) but will need a junction box and conduit to travel down the outside of the house to the panel. It is outside.
I'll modify or add another circuit if I get another electric car.
I can have 2 50A outlets on one circuit with a 50A breaker, right?

No you need dedicated wiring and breakers, only thing you can share is conduit, by code you can run Romex in conduit for a short run (10 ft. or less, I actually learned that on this forum!) only problem I see is that to be 100% code compliant then you cannot use Romex as it is not rated for wet locations even when using a short run of conduit (outside that is).

 

[Feathermerchan]

So individual conductors in conduit down the side of the house to the breaker. Romex thru the attic and ~18" down the 2X4 to the metal box, right?

I'm surprised you can't have more than one socket on the circuit. That is done all over the house on 120V. Oh well.

 

[gilscales]

So individual conductors in conduit down the side of the house to the breaker. Romex thru the attic and ~18" down the 2X4 to the metal box, right?

I'm surprised you can't have more than one socket on the circuit. That is done all over the house on 120V. Oh well.

Yes, just make sure that the junction box where the Romex terminates is indoors, you can mount it close to the exit point and use an access elbow to make the turn with the wire in the conduit https://www.amazon.com/Cantex-Access-Pull-Elbow-Poly/dp/B000BQO7SY also available at Home Depot

The reason you cannot share loads is because of the implied maximum draw of current from these 240V circuits vs. having lamps and other small amperage draw items plugged into a string of standard 120V outlets

 

[Feathermerchan]

How do I get the wire in the conduit up the side of the house into the attic where the junction box will be?
An LB?

I have a Tesla EVSE adapter for a Nema 6-50. Maybe I should just wire for that. It would save money on the wiring not running a neutral since one is not needed. Even the Tesla wall mounted EVSE does not use the neutral.

BTW thanks for all your help.

 

[gilscales]

How do I get the wire in the conduit up the side of the house into the attic where the junction box will be?
An LB?

I have a Tesla EVSE adapter for a Nema 6-50. Maybe I should just wire for that. It would save money on the wiring not running a neutral since one is not needed.

BTW thanks for all your help.

Yes you would use an Access LB of the weatherproof variety like the one posted in the link in my previous post and as far as the 6-50, it would save a little bit on wiring as you could also buy 6/2 Romex as well as drop the neutral wire, you are welcome and glad to help

 

[Prunesquallor]

The wire gauge is labeled on the wire. You may not have enough exposed to be able to read it. That looks like either 8awg or 6awg. I am guessing 8 awg. FWIW, that ground wire is oversized. 10awg is allowed for that ampacity circuit (not a problem, but just a waste).

How did the wire ends look themselves? Is the insulation melted or damaged? That white wire (which really should be red) looks gouged (though likely not your issue).

What do the ends of the wire look like where they were shoved into the terminals? Burnt? Was the clamping force onto the wire directly, or did it have any insulation pinched?

How long is the run back to the panel? Is it conduit the whole way? Is that 3/4 in conduit I assume?

8awg in conduit is code compliant for a 50a circuit (but right on the margin). Longer runs might be a good idea to do in 6awg for voltage drop reasons (but not a code issue).

It might be pretty easy to pull in new wire if you determine your wire was damaged. Could upsize it potentially depending on your goals and desires.

I have 3/4 in conduit to my wall connector and I use 6awg with a 10awg ground on a 60a circuit. I charge at 48 amps daily and it is flawless.

Oh also, it is possible that the JuiceBox whip to the plug is what failed and the issue has nothing to do with your wiring or receptacle (though the heat may have still damaged your receptacle or wires).

6awg / 10awg ground and ¾” conduit for 60 amp is exactly what my (Tesla approved) electrician used (90’ run from breaker box to WC).

 

[Scooby24]

Sorry to bump old thread but @gilscales, does the Cooper 5754N also have a 2.48" wall plate requirement? It sure looks like it does.

 

[Vines]

I have been meaning to update this thread, but over the last year or so I have been monitoring my Levitron NEMA 14-50R Plug to see if it shows signs of wear. To this point, its been 18 months and the prongs are warm but not hot to the touch after about 5 hours of charging.

Its an external box, mounted on a concrete wall, and wired on the other end of a fused disconnect so no worries if it melts down. I am curious how long it lasts with daily use of 1-2 cycles of in-out use. I know there has been a lot of talk to only use the more expensive outlets but it is what was available at the time.

 

[Scooby24]

This is one of those Gamble's not worth taking IMO. I have the Pass & Seymour which is a notable improvement over the leviton but I decided to go with Cooper since that was one of Tesla's recommendation and it was only 18 bucks with handling from Dave's. I did get a 2.48 plate to go with it too. Convenience from big box stores availability and it saving a few bucks is not worth the risk of melting, shorting out electronics or even worse..a fire.

 

[Vines]

This is one of those Gamble's not worth taking IMO. I have the Pass & Seymour which is a notable improvement over the leviton but I decided to go with Cooper since that was one of Tesla's recommendation and it was only 18 bucks with handling from Dave's. I did get a 2.48 plate to go with it too. Convenience from big box stores availability and it saving a few bucks is not worth the risk of melting, shorting out electronics or even worse..a fire.

For normal residences I'd agree, this is a commercial tilt up structure, inhabited daily by electricians. I keep an eye on it, and know its a possible failure point. I'm ready to replace anytime it but figured that I'd instead just keep an eye on it and check it at lunch each day with my hand to see for myself just how dangerous or not it seems to be.

I'm just reporting that so far after 5-600 cycles or so the Levitron seems to maintain good contact. When i replace this one I'll be using the Cooper one.

 

[gilscales]

Sorry to bump old thread but @gilscales, does the Cooper 5754N also have a 2.48" wall plate requirement? It sure looks like it does.

Yes