Business case for CHAdeMO stations

[Larry Chanin]

In Orlando (MAJOR destination) I found two, one operates at 200 volts and 80 amp, the other (Ritz Carlton, such a "poor" hotel that they can't afford a 100 amp line) operates at 48 amps and 200 volt which gave us about 36 miles per hour.

Hi Joe,

I have been informed by the installer of those high capacity chargers at the Ritz-Carlton in Orlando that you have to press the power button twice to obtain the full capacity. The Ritz was supposed to install a sign, but apparently they didn't at the time you visited them. Obviously, one also needs to have twin on-board chargers.

Larry

 

[TonyWilliams]

For hotel use, I'm actually a bit surprised they aren't going for L2 stations as overnight even at 30A is usually plenty unless you can be sure to keep cars moving through the QC station.

I know this was talked about somewhere, but the thread was broken up and dispersed throughout the forum. Here's the dynamic in a nutshell:

1) Hotels don't typically pay for hardware, and there isn't a real business case for profitable L2. So, DC charging is it for any chance of making a buck. If there's no profit motive, the public infrastructure thing is doomed (without graft and handouts from government, etc, as is the current practice).

2) Nobody prefers slow charging, particularly if you're paying for it.

3) A future 100kWh+ Tesla Model Z can suck up a costly amount of power, easily over $10, and maybe $20-$30 worth. Can you imagine the squeal from the Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM) crowd to have to actually pay the true costs of the product? Yes, many hotels will offer this service, probably as a perk. But, low end hotels obviously can't give this away, and that's a lot of hotels. For the widest possible service to overnight guests, I recommend hotels install 15/20 amp 120 volt outlets that can charge everything from a Plug-In Prius to the Model Z. It's cheap to install, and it limits how much power a Model Z can suck down overnight. It reduces "camping out" and charging "squatters". It can also power "block heaters" in northern cold states and provinces.

4) To make the chargers profitable, they have to be busy. Hence, high traffic corridors for daytime and overnight hotel guests for nighttime. In addition, the addition of car sharing with EV's can only logically be done with DC quick charging.

 

[dhrivnak]

I recommend hotels install 15/20 amp 120 volt outlets that can charge everything from a Plug-In Prius to the Model Z. It's cheap to install, and it limits how much power a Model Z can suck down overnight. It reduces "camping out" and charging "squatters". It can also power "block heaters" in northern cold states and provinces.

I disagree as there is no way a Tesla can recoup a charge overnight. A 40 amp level 2 is not a lot of money and will cover ALL cars. For level 3 there is no standard yet.

 

[LuckyLuke]

Disagree as well. Car charging will become a necessity for hotels like aircon and free/cheap wifi already is.
No charging possible = no booking, I will go elsewhere thank you.
Besides: power is cheap for most businesses, average Tesla customer that uses 40kWh overnight from the grid is max 4 (insert euro or dollar mark here), hardly any punch for a > 100 (€/$) room. One time investment maybe 1 or 2k per charging outlet, that is nothing compared to what a room costs to decorate/maintain.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I disagree as there is no way a Tesla can recoup a charger overnight. A 40 amp level 2 is not a lot of money and will cover ALL cars. For level 3 there is no standard yet.

For "Level 3", there are four standards recognized, including CHAdeMO. Tesla Supercharger isn't one of the recognized standards... yet.

You're right, 120 volts isn't going to "fill up" a 100kWh overnight. That was precisely my point, due to the costs. I never even mentioned the direct up front costs for the hardware... just the electric costs.

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Disagree as well. Car charging will become a necessity for hotels like aircon and free/cheap wifi already is.
No charging possible = no booking, I will go elsewhere thank you.
Besides: power is cheap for most businesses, average Tesla customer that uses 40kWh overnight from the grid is max 4 (insert euro or dollar mark here), hardly any punch for a > 100 (€/$) room. One time investment maybe 1 or 2k per charging outlet, that is nothing compared to what a room costs to decorate/maintain.

Wifi has no additional ongoing cost to the hotel to provide you with free wifi. Your points as to the cost of electricity is EXACTLY my point. A room that costs $€£ 100 per night or more can likely absorb those costs... the bulk of lower priced hotels, maybe not.

Don't worry... I fully understand that you want free car charging at your hotel. Every hotel, from the cheapest to the most expensive, can provide 120 volt 12 amp service for free to their customers. The upfront cost can be as little as $100 per installation. That's why I recommend it.

 

[JST]

For "Level 3", there are four standards recognized, including CHAdeMO. Tesla Supercharger isn't one of the recognized standards... yet.

You're right, 120 volts isn't going to "fill up" a 100kWh overnight. That was precisely my point, due to the costs. I never even mentioned the direct up front costs for the hardware... just the electric costs.

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Wifi has no additional ongoing cost to the hotel to provide you with free wifi. Your points as to the cost of electricity is EXACTLY my point. A room that costs $€£ 100 per night or more can likely absorb those costs... the bulk of lower priced hotels, maybe not.

Don't worry... I fully understand that you want free car charging at your hotel. Every hotel, from the cheapest to the most expensive, can provide 120 volt 12 amp service for free to their customers. The upfront cost can be as little as $100 per installation. That's why I recommend it.

What's interesting to me about hotels is that, in my experience, it is the cheaper places that tend to offer things like wifi for free, and the more expensive places that charge for them. I have spent almost zero time thinking about why this is, though I suppose it has to do with a) wifi being a relatively low-cost differentiator at the lower price levels, and b) higher-price places serving a clientele who is willing to pay extra for features such as wifi. There's probably a (c) in the mix, too, which has to do with higher-price places catering to business customers who can probably expense things like wifi costs.

I don't know how well that observation translates to electric car charging, but I can see charging working in a similar fashion--low and mid-price hotels offering access to L2 charging for free as a low-cost differentiator, with higher-price places charging a fee for it simply because they can get away with doing so.

 

[TexasEV]

I agree with the Wi-Fi analogy. Capital costs to install Wi-Fi throughout existing buildings was greater than a few level 2 stations would be (even high amp level 2) and ongoing expenses are similar. Hotels can either offer it to attract guests (as most do, except some high end hotels when you're not on a corporate negotiated rate that includes it) or can charge a fee like they do for internet access.

 

[Klaus]

All of these recent posts should probably have been made in the "Business case for CHAdeMO" or other charging infrastructure threads. Can we please go back on topic for this one?

 

[Cosmacelf]

A 120v 20A plug can put 75 miles/night back into a Tesla. It is better than nothing, and if staying longer than one night, acceptable. It likely won't be enough for those looking to stay just one night though. Personally, I would recommend hotels buy and install the cheaper Clipper Creek units ($500) which gives you universal J1772 compatibility and 20A/240v charging which is just the right amount of power to satisfy everyone for overnight charging.

 

[TexasEV]

A 120v 20A plug can put 75 miles/night back into a Tesla.

How long are your nights? A 120V 20A circuit will charge a Model S at about 4 miles range/hour charge. That's over 18 hours of charging to get 75 miles.

 

[Cosmacelf]

How long are your nights? A 120V 20A circuit will charge a Model S at about 4 miles range/hour charge. That's over 18 hours of charging to get 75 miles.

Sigh. I have charged with the 20a adapter and actually got 75 miles. It is more like 5 mph, and if you park at 6 pm and leave at 9am, that's 15 x 5 = 75. Bear in mind that the 20a adapter actually puts in about 43% more charge into a model S than the regular 15 A adapter (it has to do with the constant parasitic electrical drain of running computers, etc. on the Model S while charging).

 

[TexasEV]

Sigh. I have charged with the 20a adapter and actually got 75 miles. It is more like 5 mph, and if you park at 6 pm and leave at 9am, that's 15 x 5 = 75. Bear in mind that the 20a adapter actually puts in about 43% more charge into a model S than the regular 15 A adapter (it has to do with the constant parasitic electrical drain of running computers, etc. on the Model S while charging).

OK so your night was 15 hours, not 18. Still a longer time than what I think most people would consider miles/night. The 5 mph needs a "your circuits may vary" disclaimer-- the two times I used the 5-20 adapter in a hotel garage I got 4 mph. Not a big difference, but if people expect "75 miles/night" they're likely to be disappointed without knowing the night needs to be 15 hours long and even then they might be short a few miles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Sadly the number of variation in ChaDeMo implementation is pretty high and, as of today, many stations are working fine but some still do not. Patience is a virtue.

I just saw that today, 33 of the 99 chargers that tax payer funded and bankrupt BLINK installed are not working. This isn't news to anybody following this saga, but I thought I would put some numbers behind "some still do not" work.

I must qualify that further by saying that the garbage that Blink put out is in no way representative of CHAdeMO any more than if BLINK had built and installed Superchargers. They would be garbage.

 

[Blathering1]

It looks like we will have the CHAdeMO adapter in January now. At least that is better than 'coming this winter' posted a year or so ago.