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Buyer Beware: AP2 Extremely Dangerous

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Granted I've only had my AP1 car for a few months, but I am just not impressed with autosteer. It actually seems worse than the AP1 test drive car I borrowed for a weekend. It's possible it's an 8.0 vs 7.1 thing, or I was just on better roads with the test drive.

For me autosteer works well on a clear, well marked, reasonably straight interstate. Throw in any combination of traffic, curves, hills, weather, or suboptimal lane markings and it becomes unreliable enough for me that I cannot trust it to keep me out of trouble.

TACC on the other hand seems great.

Autosteer in traffic at speed was a big selling point for me, but has been a big disappointment.
 
True Story: Driving home from dinner last Saturday night, I found a new road where AutoPilot supposedly worked. When I enabled it, the car zigged and zagged all over the place without any regard for vehicles in adjacent lanes. My wife was screaming that I had better turn it off before the cops saw what was going on and pulled me over for drunk driving. I wasn’t, by the way. Not so sure about the Tesla, but I didn’t want to have to explain all of that to a police officer. And my wife reminded me that it wouldn't be Elon they were hauling off to jail after listening to my story. :eek:
 
True Story: Driving home from dinner last Saturday night, I found a new road where AutoPilot supposedly worked. When I enabled it, the car zigged and zagged all over the place without any regard for vehicles in adjacent lanes. My wife was screaming that I had better turn it off before the cops saw what was going on and pulled me over for drunk driving. I wasn’t, by the way. Not so sure about the Tesla, but I didn’t want to have to explain all of that to a police officer. And my wife reminded me that it wouldn't be Elon they were hauling off to jail after listening to my story. :eek:
I wonder if you drove the areas where AP2 was really shaky more if it would get better. Supposedly Shadow Mode is how the car learns what is should do, therefore if no other Teslas with AP2 are on those roads the car may act flaky. I seem to remember some similar complaints about how AP1 took corners until an update occurred that 'magically' fixed the issue.
 
We have seen no appreciable improvement on roads we drive regularly although this was not one of them. AP2 was so erratic on this road that it would be impossible for the car to have "learned" much since we had to immediately disable AP2. This road had clearly marked lines so there wasn't a visibility problem or curve to deal with.
 
We have seen no appreciable improvement on roads we drive regularly although this was not one of them. AP2 was so erratic on this road that it would be impossible for the car to have "learned" much since we had to immediately disable AP2. This road had clearly marked lines so there wasn't a visibility problem or curve to deal with.

If you have a phone and it's so easy to reproduce maybe you could post a video of what you're experiencing? I'm guessing that there's something wrong with the alignment or calibration of your HW2.
 
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I also have wondered if there perhaps was more to Mobileye's software than its naysayers claim. Having said that Tesla seems to be making quite rapid progress. Remember it was an entire YEAR after AP 1 hardware came out before the system was turned on. We are what - 90 days roughly since the first AP 2 deliveries?
 
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A common misconception popping up is that your car is going to learn - it doesn't. The learning is done on a big supercomputer that is running the "learning" algorithms. The one from Nvidia, for instance, is $130,000 list. Nobody really knows exactly what is going on, but it is likely that our cars are collecting information that is being sent back to SkyNet to do the learning. Nvidia's demo, again only for instance, says that their software requires a car to be driven through a particular environment 20 times in different conditions (light, weather) to learn how to navigate it. See:
Even though Tesla Vision is in-house and not Nvidia's system, I'd imagine that it is similar in its approach - observe drivers passing through a particular environment in multiple conditions and "learn" how to do it. Then that behavior is generalized to other locations whenever autosteer is engaged.

So a few things that leave me optimistic that the system is going to get better soon:
  • Neural networks' error rates improve dramatically once they start "getting the hang of it" see 10 Misconceptions about Neural Networks
  • They're getting a lot of data. AP does not need to be engaged to collect data. I imagine they're picking sections of road with multiple pass-throughs to feed into the system. The error can easily be calculated because they know what the driver actually did and what the network is producing as an output.
  • Some people are having excellent results. I drive back and forth on a traffic jammed highway every day and have had to maybe on average twice a day disengage, almost always for exit ramp following.
But, a complication is that learning how to drive isn't all they're trying to do. If you look carefully at the most recent Tesla video, there are no lane lines! At least none that I can see. If the system is really doing DNN learning, there is no instruction to "find lane lines. stay in them." The car just stays in the lane because that's what human drivers do. When I pay no attention to the dancing lane lines and just look at the path my car is following, it is going pretty straight. Look at the lines and yikes! So, what I'm getting at is that Tesla Vision seems to aim to accomplish some algorithmic logic that requires the identification of things (lane lines, cars, people, street signs) that is very much separate from what is needed to just drive down the road. An example is setting speed based on a speed limit sign. I'm not sure a DNN could ever get enough data to generalize the presence of a 25 MPH sign to the fact that the driver is going 29 mph or whatever. Same for AEB or side collision avoidance.

That being said, the communication was very poor at sales time about the capabilities of the system as it existed then (November when I ordered). I had looked into it, but it took a few conversations to get them to admit that as of then (November 2016) a car coming off the assembly line didn't even have the basic safety features, such as AEB. And, even more poking around to find out that it didn't even have auto headlights! I can't imagine that there aren't at least some really upset owners. The data was there in the materials, but the salespeople spoke with too much confidence about EAP's feature-full imminent delivery.
 
I just sent the following note to Tesla, but wanted to alert others to some of the problems we have experienced with AP2...

We have 17.3.2 and have used AutoSteer extensively on a number of interstate highways since its initial release. Primitive would be an understatement. Here's what we have encountered. On a straight road with no cars, AP2 appears to work satisfactorily at 45 MPH. On a road which curves leaving the vehicle driving into the sun even with human-readable lane markings that remain easy to decipher with the naked eye, the car is worse than dangerous. The car immediately zig zags from lane to lane with no realization that vehicles may be in the other lanes, even beside the car. On highways with exit ramps, AP2 always follows the exit ramp if you are in the right lane even without a right turn signal and even with clearly marked dotted lines on left side of the lane and even if following a vehicle proceeding straight ahead. AP2 still slams on the brakes when approaching almost any (stationary) overhead sign on an interstate.

I appreciate that AP1 code needed tweaking for the new hardware, but AP2 really leaves the impression that the developers started over... and have not progressed even to the level of what most would consider safe driving. There really should be more warnings and alerts regarding documented problems for those that are expecting a safer driving experience. A traffic fatality would be a huge setback for Tesla, not to mention the poor driver.

I have driven through THICK traffic with drivers all over and lane markers obscured by rain and snow and I've had none of these issues. I even was so confident I took a video. Go ahead and watch (sorry about the camera jitters, I wasn't confident enough to not keep a vigilant eye on the road). I think something might be wrong because we clearly have very different experiences. My car doesn't zig zag, it stayed in the middle of the lane. It also handled turns well and even people changing lanes into my lane and leaving. It dealt well with vehicles pressing into my lane but not actually cutting in. There were bridges and overpasses and other situations it handled well. The proof is in the video. Hopefully your situation changes. Good luck!

Of note, I have 17.3.15.

 
Something tells me Elon tweeted the "Please be careful" message with good reason.

Also something tells me Tesla has a nasty forward camera pitch issue... Imagine how a system with cameras pointing too much downwards (or upwards) would behave with respect to lane reading, as opposed to a correctly aligned camera
 
The problem with "please be careful" and "you must remain in control of the vehicle at all times" is that it is impossible. My car frequently slams on the brakes without warning - how can I remain in control and be careful when that happens? I've decided to stop testing until a safer version is released. This risk of being hit from behind is too great at this moment.
 
The problem with "please be careful" and "you must remain in control of the vehicle at all times" is that it is impossible. My car frequently slams on the brakes without warning - how can I remain in control and be careful when that happens? I've decided to stop testing until a safer version is released. This risk of being hit from behind is too great at this moment.
Is it AutoSteer + TACC that is slaming on brakes or just TACC? As in if you just use TACC do you have the same problem.
 
I just sent the following note to Tesla, but wanted to alert others to some of the problems we have experienced with AP2...

We have 17.3.2 and have used AutoSteer extensively on a number of interstate highways since its initial release. Primitive would be an understatement. Here's what we have encountered. On a straight road with no cars, AP2 appears to work satisfactorily at 45 MPH. On a road which curves leaving the vehicle driving into the sun even with human-readable lane markings that remain easy to decipher with the naked eye, the car is worse than dangerous. The car immediately zig zags from lane to lane with no realization that vehicles may be in the other lanes, even beside the car. On highways with exit ramps, AP2 always follows the exit ramp if you are in the right lane even without a right turn signal and even with clearly marked dotted lines on left side of the lane and even if following a vehicle proceeding straight ahead. AP2 still slams on the brakes when approaching almost any (stationary) overhead sign on an interstate.

I appreciate that AP1 code needed tweaking for the new hardware, but AP2 really leaves the impression that the developers started over... and have not progressed even to the level of what most would consider safe driving. There really should be more warnings and alerts regarding documented problems for those that are expecting a safer driving experience. A traffic fatality would be a huge setback for Tesla, not to mention the poor driver.
In case it has not been made clear yet, AP2 IS starting from scratch. It does not share the same code as AP1 given Tesla dropped Mobileye. Not only are the sensors completely different, the processors are different too. Why else do you think the AP1 features are unavailable in AP2?

So it has regressed back to the early days of AP1 (the exit problem was fixed after many updates).
 
We have seen no appreciable improvement on roads we drive regularly although this was not one of them. AP2 was so erratic on this road that it would be impossible for the car to have "learned" much since we had to immediately disable AP2. This road had clearly marked lines so there wasn't a visibility problem or curve to deal with.
There's a lot of misconception about AP learning. The car itself does not learn. Rather it uploads relevant data to Tesla and Tesla's computers then learn from that data. The results of that learning is downloaded back into the car during updates. In this way, the entire fleet is "learning" at the same time.

This data is collected even when AP is deactivated. And with the recent AP2 shadow mode, the car computer will calculate what it would do if it was active and compare to what the human is doing. This can reduce the amount of computing Tesla has to do with their own computers.
 
Except that while the IC indicates a wiggling, the car itself doesn't. It remains steady. The wheel may torque a bit but the car itself barely moves, if at all. I really think it must be hardware differences if TACC behaves differently. I have only had one episode where TACC reacted and that was because someone turned into oncoming traffic to make a U-Turn and FCW went off and the car dropped 20mph. I think that was not a bad event but rather a good reaction to a situation the car clearly couldn't process.

I've read several owners complaint about TACC sudden braking, so maybe that issue has been lessened with 17.3.15 as compared to 17.3.2.