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Buying a 2015 MS 85 privatley. What does one need to know?

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by KDF, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. KDF

    KDF Member

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  2. Tiger

    Tiger Member

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    There's some videos on youtube covering the typical service needed to be done on typical tesla's. You could try to sum the cost up and deduct that from a CPO price and then see if the privately sold one is still a better bargin.
     
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  3. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #3 Troy, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
    Hi, @KDF.

    The car in that ad has the executive rear seats. Tesla introduced those seats for a short time but then quickly discontinued them when the take rate was low. Those rear seats are rare.

    The Model S 85, does not have an 85 kWh battery. At that time, Tesla was over advertising battery capacities to sell more of the higher capacity versions. The car should have been called the Model S 80, instead of 85. When this car was new it had 77.5 kWh usable battery capacity. In comparison, a Model 3 Long Range (Model 3 80) has 78.3 kWh usable capacity.

    In Europe, they have the range rating called NEDC (New European Driving Cycle). This rating system is rubbish because the range numbers are completely unrealistic and too high. However, that is what EVs use to advertise their range numbers outside of North America. In short, even though the Model S 85 has an advertised 502 km NEDC rated range in Australia, this is complete rubbish and the car has much less range.

    When new, this car had 363.6 km real-world range based on 77500 Wh battery capacity and 213.1 Wh/km lifetime average energy consumption. However, at 66,000 km you should expect 95% of capacity which means 345 km real-world range at 100% charge. Check out this graph that shows the degradation curve of Tesla batteries. In comparison, the new Model 3 Long Range has 480 km real-world range. In addition, a Model 3 Long Range will supercharge quicker than a Model S 85 in terms of range added in 30 minutes. Therefore be aware that the Model 3 is better than this car in terms of cabin space, range, Supercharge times, Autopilot hardware etc. Check out the comparison here.

    If you email the seller, you could ask this question: "What is the Typical range at 100% charge?" The answer you should get should be around 380 km. Typical range is a range unit Tesla created as an alternative to the advertised NEDC rated range. In the settings menu, you can select between Typical and rated range.

    Here is a summary:

    Model S 85 when new:
    502 km NEDC rated range (advertised range) << This is what the car displays at 100% charge when it's set to "Rated"
    400 km Typical range << This is what the car displays at 100% charge when it's set to "Typical"
    364 km real-world range << This is how much you can actually drive on average

    Model S 85 at 66,000 km:
    477 km NEDC rated range << This is what the car displays at 100% charge when it's set to "Rated"
    380 km Typical range << This is what the car displays at 100% charge when it's set to "Typical"
    345 km real-world range << This is how much you can actually drive on average

    By the way, in this video by Bjorn, you can see that the car has 378 km range at 100% charge. You should see something similar. Ideally, you should see 380 km or better. This car in the ad has the same range and battery size as Bjorn's old car that you see in this video. Therefore you could watch some of his videos before he switched to a Model X. Also, in Europe, Australia, and Asia, Tesla cars display the same range units (NEDC rated range or Typical range). However, in the USA and Canada, they display different range units (EPA rated range).

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative x 2
  4. KDF

    KDF Member

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    #4 KDF, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
    Hi Troy,

    Thanks for the very comprehensive answer to my querie. Some very good pointers here.
    On FB someone suggested at about A$35.000 more a new car would make more sense in terms of future proofing (AP2), range, warranty and build quality ect.....
     
  5. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #5 Troy, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
    Hi, @KDF. I'm not sure which Model S version is a better choice for you but one idea would be to keep this car for 2 years and then switch to a Model 3 80 or 80D. If you like this idea, then it would make sense to pick a Model S that will depreciate the least in two years. I don't know if a used AP1 or AP2 would depreciate less. It's hard to predict this because a used car that has already depreciated a lot might depreciate less in the next two years. In case it helps with your research, AP1.0 was introduced on 19 Sep 2014 and AP2.0 on 16 Oct 2016. The facelift happened on 12 Apr 2016. Therefore, there are some facelift cars that don't have AP2.0 but all AP2.0 cars have the facelift.

    By the way, I have created the following table based on EPA highway dyno scores. Since 2012, the rating systems have changed but the Model S 85's range hasn't been updated after the change. For example, the Model S 85 has a higher advertised range than the Model S 75D but the only reason is that, in 2012, the ratings were calculated more generously and in 2013, 2014 and 2015 they didn't re-test the Model S 85. They just used the 2012 scores. In the real-world, the Model S 75D has more range than a Model S 85. Therefore it would be better to pick a newer Model S 75D over an older Model S 85 if the prices are similar. However, none of the 75, 85 or 90 kWh Model S versions have more range than a Model 3 80/80D.

    The orange cells show real-world range. The purple cells show real-world range after the battery has degraded. Around 65,000 km, Tesla batteries have 95% capacity left on average. See this graph. The battery Supercharge percentages in 30 minutes are from this video for the Model S. For the Model 3, I calculated them from the numbers on this page. For example, the page says the Model 3 80 will Supercharge 170 miles in 30 minutes. That's 170mi/310mi= 54.8% for the Model 3 80. The numbers in the blue cells are highway dyno test scores published by the EPA.
    [​IMG]

    Besides EPA highway dyno scores, there is also a completely different method based on survey data (lifetime Wh/km numbers) and that method also confirms that the Model S 75D has more range than the Model S 85. You can see the table here.
     
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  6. KDF

    KDF Member

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    Wow....
    Just Wow. Amazing amount of info here. Thanks so much.

    Tesla offered me a 2017 demonstrator Model S 75 with 1500 km for just under A$120.000....
     
  7. GSP

    GSP Member

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    One thing to look for is LTE capability. Early 2015 cars (like mine) only have 3G. Later ones have LTE. Early cars can be upgraded to LTE by Tesla service for 500 USD. LTE is not faster with Tesla's system or browser, but coverage is better in some locations, and this will probably increase in the future.

    Another thing I would check is does the car have next gen seats or not. Upgrading to next gen after the fact is expensive if done by Tesla service, and only Tesla service can update the software for the next gen seat airbags.

    New cars have Tesla in-house "premium seats." Even better than next gen, I think.

    Happy shopping,

    GSP
     
  8. Ghosty

    Ghosty Member

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    If you go private - These are things to consider in CPO vs Private.

    For example: Over a month ago - I looked at a 2014 S85. Selling point was $52,500. The original sticker price was 90,000 with all the upgrades. Vehicle had 35k miles and appeared to be in great condition. Clean title. It was later determined that the car did in fact have AP hardware. However, after further inquiry - it was revealed that the car did not have the AP activated ($3,000 cost). The warranty would expire the following year - given the miles on the car. So I considered the 4 year ESA that costs $4,750.

    With that in mind - I personally did not value the car at anywhere near 52,500 because I could have gone with a CPO from Tesla which would provide significant more assurance regarding quality of the car at time of sale plus it includes the 4yrs/100k mile warranty. (This ESA is not as great as the original one - but good enough maybe? Despite the $200 deductible - some would say not worth it).

    Eventually, the seller reduced the price to 47k. Seller later sent out an e-mail to all those who had contacted her asking them to submit their final offers as she would accept the best offer to sell her car by a given date. I'm pretty certain that car sold for no more than 45k. Out of personal preference - I priced it at max 42k. I figured if I paid for the 3k AP, plus the 4,750 - I would have a car with AP well under what Tesla was offering - most CPO AP cars I found from Tesla were 55k+ and you had to account for paying tax with CPO as well.

    I'm in NV so I pay no tax on private party sale. Check your state for tax - that is another factor to consider.
     
  9. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    #9 scottm, Sep 20, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
    Don't worry about battery, they're the best in the industry.. and covered by 8 year warranty anyway. I have set my display to % charged, and just leave it on that forever. Never use the distance display (rated or typical) because I feel those create anxiety and can be misleading. (Get to know your own driving style and % consumption and you are golden, worry free.)

    If the 2015 S85 range capability covers what you need on a regular basis you are fine, don't worry about range comparisons with newer or different cars, and don't worry about battery degradation. I mean, really, suppose your gas tank can only hold 95% volume of the gas you used to be able to pump into it... do you think that matters to how you use the car? It won't change a thing you do.

    You should have free supercharging, check. Have the owner demonstrate SCing for you. Watch the whole experience carefully.

    Take the car to public level 2 charger, try the J adapter. Dial up the Amperage on the car as high as it will go for that charger. Car built with dual chargers onboard? Then you'll want to see an Amperage over 40A to prove they both work so find a public charger that is rated above 40. Test out the UMC charger on a 240v supply somewhere.. maybe owners home.

    I upgraded my 3G to LTE antenna in the car for $500... and I wouldn't recommend that change, not worth it unless you have way better coverage on LTE and need that.

    Do all the traditional concerns about buying a used car, get a history on it. Get a quote for insurance on it. Do a trace on VIN with police for stolen property. Get Tesla's service records for it, from the current owner... if they can't produce anything assume nothing was done.

    Have the owner login to their 'mytesla' account and show you anything you'd like to see, original documents, etc.

    For this year of car, ask if the drivetrain has been replaced. Listen carefully to drivetrain for a test drive with no audio on, and windows up. Put the rear seats folded down for the drive and take all stuff out of the rear / trunk / hatch and lower trunk. If there are any issues you will hear whirring, screeching, clunking, etc at different speeds and accel/decel phases. You want darn near SILENCE don't accept "always been like that" answers for noticeable noises at the rear, anything other than what I'd describe as very muted "electronics sound" similar to the classic defibrillator charge-up sounds you hear on T.V. shows. If in doubt, compare the drive sounds to a NEW Tesla RWD model only, not AWD, done at the store. AWD have more noises up front you won't have.

    If you stomp on the accelerator and hear a high pitch balloon squealing sound emanating from what seems like "somewhere in the dash" don't worry about that, it's normal. And after 100K km on my car hasn't changed with new motor or old (my drivetrain was replaced). It's the go fast sound.

    Oh ya, start strengthening your neck muscles doing some specific exercises, and have family members do the same. Or some will complain of whiplash driving around. :p

    Buying a good used car at the right price is always more economical than buying new. You don't take the initial depreciation hit.

    How long do you want to hang on to the car? Maybe plan on selling it in a year or two before the drivetrain warranty ends. These cars are retaining value better than most in similar class, so you can recoup something. Set your sights accordingly, knowing you're likely to get decent cash getting out of the car when you're done and haven't crashed it.

    What's it worth to you? Is the only price you should feel comfortable offering. Set your maximum before you shop.
     

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