Cabin camera soon to be required for all AP features?

[Supcom]

To clarify the IR trackers emit infrared energy in the form of a heat signature that measures the energy of the object. I'm not 100% sure of all the internal workings of the technology on how they calibrate it, but I assume that it's calibrated much like the Tobii Eye Tracker on gaming laptops to where the emphasis are on the eyes.

(moderator edit)

So-called IR trackers are cameras with the image sensors sensitivity extended into the infrared spectrum. The advantage of this is that it permits the car to shine light in your face without blinding you, since our eyes are not sensitive to the illuminator's wavelength. If the camera was not sensitive to the infrared spectrum, then it would need to be more sensitive to low ambient light, making the eye tracking more difficult.

The car certainly will have image processing that is optimized for eye detection and tracking, as the stated function of the camera is to assure attentiveness of the driver. But, taking the conspiratorial attitude that seems to resonate with you, I can say that unless the image data is physically separated completely from the rest of the car's data processor (a VERY unlikely possibility), then that image data is available for any number of potential (mis)uses, regardless of what GM may say. Maybe without GM's knowledge.

The same applies to Tesla, of course, and any other manufacturer that has a driver monitoring camera.

Oh, and there's a microphone built into your Tesla. That might be more of a concern than someone watching you pick your nose.

 

[unlock]

What’s so hard to comprehend?
Here goes…
Light isn’t just the stuff you are seeing hitting objects (because you can’t really see the light itself).
Ultra violet is still light just a higher wavelength, hence ultra.
Infra Red is still light, just a lower wavelength, hence infra.
Things that detect light are called “cameras”
The detector part of the camera (sensor) has filters to make sure the the correct wavelength hits the sensor.
The sensors are rarely different but the filters are.
Color cameras have several filters for the different colors.
Infrared is particularly good at seeing heat which is why it’s used here. It’s easier for the sensor of the camera to pick out humans instead of seats.
Bottom line. IR detector than can detect eyes, faces etc is a camera.
Don’t believe me? Go look up all the game cams on Amazon

I think you've misread. I never said that an IR was not a camera. Go read my previous post for details.

 

[unlock]

From your attempt to describe an eye-tracker, it's clear that you do not have a good understanding of them.

So-called IR trackers are cameras with the image sensors sensitivity extended into the infrared spectrum. The advantage of this is that it permits the car to shine light in your face without blinding you, since our eyes are not sensitive to the illuminator's wavelength. If the camera was not sensitive to the infrared spectrum, then it would need to be more sensitive to low ambient light, making the eye tracking more difficult.

The car certainly will have image processing that is optimized for eye detection and tracking, as the stated function of the camera is to assure attentiveness of the driver. But, taking the conspiratorial attitude that seems to resonate with you, I can say that unless the image data is physically separated completely from the rest of the car's data processor (a VERY unlikely possibility), then that image data is available for any number of potential (mis)uses, regardless of what GM may say. Maybe without GM's knowledge.

The same applies to Tesla, of course, and any other manufacturer that has a driver monitoring camera.

Oh, and there's a microphone built into your Tesla. That might be more of a concern than someone watching you pick your nose.

I'm well aware of how an eye tracker works, thank you. The issue here is that some are taking things way too literally and completely missing the simple point of the entire thread. What resonates with me is having a healthy and mature conversation about the topic without complete jerks entering the picture who find enjoyment in derailing the topic.

Thanks for sharing your piece.

 

[MNoICE618]

DMS = Driver monitoring system
OMS= occupant monitoring system

they use pulsed IRs and a camera to capture,analyse and report a state. Asleep for example.
tesla model 3 irs are in the camera mirror unit.

the us 21st century smart car legislation will effectively mandate dms from 2024.

Like it or not, it’s here to stay in all OEMS.

 

[JulienW]

A delightfully entertaining and informative tread, but at least I'm shielded from the evils of Elon's captured electromagnetic radiation waves when I drive my Tesla spy bot.

 

[JulienW]

Found the PERFECT car for the OP and it is even an EV.

GM offers rebate on Cadillac Lyriq if drivers sign NDA, agree to be tracked

Cadillac quietly offered some customers a big discount off the new Lyriq if they agreed to let GM study their driving data, stay mum on the vehicle.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Twiglett]

From the Ford website on BlueCruise
"...you are monitored by a driver-facing camera..."

From GM websites on GM Ultra or Super Cruise
"...uses a driver facing camera..." they even call it the "Driver Attention Camera System"

From BMW
"Driver Attention Camera"

So they're all doing it. So the concern must be because only Tesla is a "data" company so therefore cannot be trusted.
Except, Ford has always used Microsoft and are just switching to that stalwart of data privacy, Google.
Who does GM use, why its Microsoft as well.
Couldn't be bothered trying to find who BMW use, but its pretty obvious its not their own system.

Common part to all - camera is required to use their ADAS.
Difference with Tesla is they tried it without a camera but have been forced into using one thanks to folks like nanny CR "protecting" us.
Tesla has feet in both camps right now, they aren't 100% camera based and still use the steering wheel torque. Really, Model 3 & Y have had cameras from the start.
Best way to avoid driver facing cameras is to not get a car that has any kind of ADAS and doesn't physically have the camera.

Best advice for the privacy concerned - definitely don't buy a new Tesla, but the earlier pre-2021 Model S/X would be good, reasonable AP etc and no driver cam.
But if privacy really is concern, then the driver cam is least of your worries with a modern connected car. They've all figured out that car telemetry is the way forward and are connecting their cars. TeslaFi shows me all the drives, charges, idles etc for my entire ownership, you know Tesla has that and more for every car they've made. Driver cam is a drop in the ocean.

 

[Supcom]

Found the PERFECT car for the OP and it is even an EV.

GM offers rebate on Cadillac Lyriq if drivers sign NDA, agree to be tracked

Cadillac quietly offered some customers a big discount off the new Lyriq if they agreed to let GM study their driving data, stay mum on the vehicle.

www.yahoo.com

Mark the car up $5500 then offer a discount so customers can't complain about the car online. I wonder if the NDA prevents owners from filing NHTSA complaints as well.

 

[JulienW]

Mark the car up $5500 then offer a discount so customers can't complain about the car online. I wonder if the NDA prevents owners from filing NHTSA complaints as well.

Lyriq has a MSRP of $63K (which is a decent price on a very compelling EV) and the rebate would be applied to that. You are of course dealing with an independent dealer and they may add a "market adjustment" but that is basically unrelated to Cadillac. Also they would add this "market adjustment" to any Lyriq they sold since the dealer may not even be aware of the confidential agreement you are making with Cadillac.

Doubt that the NDA does or even could preclude any safety related NHTSA reporting since it is about studying driving habits and not about problems you have with the vehicle. If Cadillac was trying to "cover up" vehicle problems then EVERY buyer would need to sign an NDA.

Tesla has access to your data too but they aggregate it so there is no personal attachment (except the OP's data which is sent directly to Elon Musk to review ) . Cadillac is wanting all personal attachments to the direct data.

 

[hugh_jassol]

The issue here is @unlock doesn't believe what's stated by Tesla. So there's no amount of evidence that can be presented that would sway them. They have decided that Tesla is lying and recording and/or transmitting images from that camera no matter what Tesla says - even in print.

A question I have for unlock and others who put tape over the camera or whatever... do you not use a modern smartphone? Most of us carry a phone around (and have it with us in way more intimate/compromising places/situations) that has, 3-4 cameras on it. Do you believe Google/Apple/Samsung/etc that they aren't collecting images or audio regardless of how preferences are set? And even if you don't, do you avoid being around anyone else who is carrying a phone with 3-4 cameras and microphones? Not to mention, you bought a car where your location is tracked and recorded 100% of the time. I'd be much more concerned that Tesla knows every places I have ever visited with my car than it having a picture of me picking my nose while driving.

My point is, I 100% get concern for privacy, that's not the issue here. I'm saying it's an odd place to draw the line for a cabin camera where the company explicitly states images never leave the car.

 

[JulienW]

The issue here is @unlock doesn't believe what's stated by Tesla. So there's no amount of evidence that can be presented that would sway them. They have decided that Tesla is lying and recording and/or transmitting images from that camera no matter what Tesla says - even in print....

Are you saying they have Confirmation Bias?

 

[jakimo]

If eye tracking ends up required, I sure hope it 'inspires' Tesla to give us ordinary Cruise Control as an option (just speed lock, no smarts)

 

[KArnold]

there's a microphone built into your Tesla. That might be more of a concern

∆∆∆ This. Not to mention geo tracking.

Anybody in the next car could take my picture if so inclined. Not sure that action alone could harm me. But private conversations and where I go every day? That is a higher concern. I make a point of not discussing plans to overthrow the government while driving.

But for me, it's a lost cause. My home hard disk crashed and I tried to get my backup from the NSA - they refused. And if I want privacy I'll use the cone of silence.

There is no such thing as privacy in our society today, especially if you use a cell phone, computer, or cars disguised as one. But more power to yous who continue that battle - I sincerely wish you the best. The day is not far off where you will be unable to buy or sell without a government identification embedded inside your body.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Not every AP-capable Tesla has a cabin camera, so they’re can’t require the camera for AP features.

But, they can and likely will require it for the cars that have it.

They almost have to because of the NHTSA breathing down their necks.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

If eye tracking ends up required, I sure hope it 'inspires' Tesla to give us ordinary Cruise Control as an option (just speed lock, no smarts)

Only AP will require driver monitoring.

TACC doesn't require driver monitoring.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I think this is getting a little overblown.

Tesla is able to collect all the data it needs for cabin camera using the FSD Beta program where you have to enable video data sharing (including the cabin camera) to use it. They have 100K some odd FSD Beta testers so they're getting plenty of data.

AP is absolutely going to require the cabin camera to be uncovered, but it won't require video data sharing. It simply won't because of the $hit storm it would create.

So the only real difference between Tesla, and other solutions is going to be how well they work.

 

[Soul Surfer]

Problem solved.

 

[JulienW]

Problem solved.

The camera is REQUIRED for Beta and will almost certainly be required for all AP when the stacks are integrated.

 

[Soul Surfer]

The camera is REQUIRED for Beta and will almost certainly be required for all AP when the stacks are integrated.

Ok. I always have the option to slide the door open.I am not FSD.

 

[unlock]

A delightfully entertaining and informative tread, but at least I'm shielded from the evils of Elon's captured electromagnetic radiation waves when I drive my Tesla spy bot.

View attachment 829117

A cowboy shaped hat works better. It catches the EMF fall in the form of rain drops and may prevent it from getting into your popcorn.

Found the PERFECT car for the OP and it is even an EV.

GM offers rebate on Cadillac Lyriq if drivers sign NDA, agree to be tracked

Cadillac quietly offered some customers a big discount off the new Lyriq if they agreed to let GM study their driving data, stay mum on the vehicle.

www.yahoo.com

That thing is atrocious. Just another glorified GM product with a strong older following to gobble up pre orders so I give them that. The lyriq is very inefficient for what it is, although there are aspects to the interior that I do appreciate.