Cadillac ELR (Converj)

[scott2613]

If they are using the Volt platform they should remember the Cadillac Cimarron. It was actually a rebadged Chevrolet Cavilier. That didn't work out to well.
Rebadged Disasters: Cadillac Cimarron
GM is driven by sales and marketing not engineering. They still do not seem to hold their customer in very high regard.
They haven't learned a thing.

 

[scottf200]

If they are using the Volt platform they should remember the Cadillac Cimarron. It was actually a rebadged Chevrolet Cavilier. That didn't work out to well.
GM is driven by sales and marketing not engineering. They still do not seem to hold their customer in very high regard.
They haven't learned a thing.

The Volt was my first Chevrolet and I have followed it closely and any issues that have come up. GM has treated their Volt customers EXTREMELY well and in high regard. It has been impressive. We seen/heard of many many examples on other forums. It has been truly impressive especially compared to how Nissan has treated their early adopters of the LEAF. Obviously based on my sig I'm impressed with Tesla (waiting on X) and I don't buy cars every few years so I try to do a lot of research and invest wisely.

 

[mknox]

The Volt was my first Chevrolet and I have followed it closely and any issues that have come up. GM has treated their Volt customers EXTREMELY well and in high regard. It has been impressive. We seen/heard of many many examples on other forums. It has been truly impressive especially compared to how Nissan has treated their early adopters of the LEAF. Obviously based on my sig I'm impressed with Tesla (waiting on X) and I don't buy cars every few years so I try to do a lot of research and invest wisely.

I have to chime in that my experiences with Cadillac were first rate as well. By comparison, I took my Model S in for it's first annual service last night (pre-paid for 8 years plus extended warranty) and the promised Model S loaner wasn't available to me. I was hustled off to Enterprise. Cadillac always had another Cadillac waiting for me whenever I took it in for the free oil change/tire rotation visits or they would pick up/drop off at my office.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I will point out that the ELR is over 10 inches longer (186in vs 177) and 2 inches wider than a volt which makes it a good deal larger, but I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the length is added to the hood and trunk. The interior seems to have the same amount of room. The ELR also has 50 more horsepower, and ~20 more lbs of torque. By your scale then it should be worth 30k more just like the 600hl

As I pointed out before:
1) The premium is $41k for Volt to ELR (not $30k which would peg the ELR at $64k, which is at the border of acceptable)
2) The LS is full size luxury class where premiums are expected to scale higher. The car starts at $72k so a $30k hybrid premium is still 42%. Using the $40k CTS Coupe as base, $35k premium for ELR is a whopping 88%. As evidence of this point, note that the hybrid premium is lower for the GS ($15k by your count) and even lower for the CT (Lexus claims it's just $1k comparing to similar non-hybrids in its class) which is in the same compact class as the ELR. You simply can't use the LS's premium as a comparison.
3) The closest car to the ELR in the Cadillac lineup is the base CTS Coupe and that car has 111hp more (even considering the upgraded 207hp) and RWD. The focus of the ELR is not as a performance hybrid so this is somewhat expected, but that's still going to play a factor in value (the reason why Model S is popular is because it matches the performance of cars in its class).
4) Yes, you point out possible bundling of more features, but people hate that. We've touched on this before when discussing the Model S. A car that starts with a lower MSRP (even if base model sells little to no cars) tends to do better. High base MSRP generally puts the car out of consideration (even if they end up buying a car at the same price when optioned up).

And the 300lbs more weight (not sure why as coupes usually weigh less) is going to negate a lot of the extra power. It also matters if it's the ICE that got a power boost or the motor. Of course we don't have enough details yet to see.

 

[ljbad4life]

As I pointed out before:
1) The premium is $41k for Volt to ELR (not $30k which would peg the ELR at $64k, which is at the border of acceptable)
2) The LS is full size luxury class where premiums are expected to scale higher. The car starts at $72k so a $30k hybrid premium is still 42%. Using the $40k CTS Coupe as base, $35k premium for ELR is a whopping 88%. As evidence of this point, note that the hybrid premium is lower for the GS ($15k by your count) and even lower for the CT (Lexus claims it's just $1k comparing to similar non-hybrids in its class) which is in the same compact class as the ELR. You simply can't use the LS's premium as a comparison.
3) The closest car to the ELR in the Cadillac lineup is the base CTS Coupe and that car has 111hp more (even considering the upgraded 207hp) and RWD. The focus of the ELR is not as a performance hybrid so this is somewhat expected, but that's still going to play a factor in value (the reason why Model S is popular is because it matches the performance of cars in its class).
4) Yes, you point out possible bundling of more features, but people hate that. We've touched on this before when discussing the Model S. A car that starts with a lower MSRP (even if base model sells little to no cars) tends to do better. High base MSRP generally puts the car out of consideration (even if they end up buying a car at the same price when optioned up).

And the 300lbs more weight (not sure why as coupes usually weigh less) is going to negate a lot of the extra power. It also matters if it's the ICE that got a power boost or the motor. Of course we don't have enough details yet to see.

I fully agree with you on the price. it's just a bit too high. What I did figure out that GM just pretty much doubles the price when looking at the volt. Cruse (17k)>Volt (35k)>ELR(75k). Maybe that's the thinking going on at GM.

My point on the LS is that it's 30k more and it literally adds nothing to the actual real world performance and it uses the same materials inside. it's basically 30k for bragging rights and a hybrid badge. With the ELR at least it will have better materials, better handling, and faster than the Volt it's derived from (that alone does not mean it should be anywhere near as expensive as it is!).

From the specs motortrend threw around, 50 more horse power, and 20 lbs of more torque (because of the tweaked electric motor) I think it's about a second faster off the line. The 300 pounds are from the sunroof, power seats that are heated and cooled and materials.

I don't like the way most car company bundle, it always means what I want is in 2 different bundles and sometimes I would just prefer a bigger bundle than either waiting for the car I want built or finding a car that has some of what I want. But I know I'm not the typical car shopper in that regard.

 

[Blastphemy]

While I do concede there's some justifiable price premium for a Cadillac over a Chevrolet, I just can't get past...

1) Volt has 38-mile range, while ELR has 35-mile range
2) Volt has convenient hatchback allowing a lot of storage, while ELR just has a small trunk
3) Volt has four doors, while ELR only has two
4) Volt has four seats, and ELR has four seats, so no improvement
5) Volt interior doesn't work well for people over 6'2", and ELR is even more cramped, especially in the back seat
6) Volt accelerates 0-60 in 8 seconds, and GM says ELR does it in 7 seconds - fractionally better
7) Volt has front-wheel drive, and ELR has front-wheel drive, so no improvement

Of course, the ELR will come with C.U.E.; power seats with memory; possibly heated and cooled front seats; a better suspension; nicer tires, better handling; available adaptive cruise control; available hi-tech features like Cross-Traffic Alert and Lane Departure Warning; and other improvements. But do those features (which are and have been available on less expensive cars), plus the Cadillac badge, really justify a $35,000 premium over a fully-loaded Volt? And is getting one of only 100 Saks 5th Avenue editions in Buick White Diamond Tricoat with a "free" charging station worth $89,500, even if it does come fully-loaded?

For GM's sake, I hope a lot of people see that value and make the ELR a success. But I'd rather buy both a Volt and a Rav4 EV for that amount of money.

BTW, I didn't see it posted in this thread yet, so you may be interested in knowing that the packages available will be LUXURY for $1,695; ADAPTIVE CRUISE CONTROL for $1,995; UPGRADED WHEELS for $900; and a SEATING package for $1,300 that gives you a driver's seat with 20 separate adjustments (but requires choosing the Kona Brown color). Therefore, a fully-loaded ELR should cost $81,885 + sales tax, etc.

However, I can't imagine buying a $60,000 coupe that does 0-60 in 8 seconds.

It's a $75,995 - $81,885 coupe that does 0-60 in 7 seconds.

I think that the price comparison is probably a little apples to oranges. Here's why: Probably a fully-loaded car. Based on the low production volumes, they're going to have to spec this car virtually fully loaded. The only options will likely be paint and dealer-installable options like wheels and spoilers.

Unfortunately, there are $5,890 of upgradable options that don't come standard. And if you want one of those 100 Saks Fifth Avenue cars, it'll be another $7,615 on top of that.

Well, it does have:

• Full LED headlamps and taillamps
• Forward Collision Alert
• Lane Departure Warning
• Side Blind Zone Alert
• Rear Cross-Traffic Alert
• Full-speed-range adaptive cruise control
• Online programmable charging schedules and energy-efficiency reports

Unfortunately, aside from the first and last items, you don't get any of those features without adding the "Luxury" and "Adaptive Cruise Control" packages for a total of $3,690 extra.

There are a ton of features on this car. Bold are differences when compared to the Volt which I did quickly so may have overlooked something...

Design:

• Twenty-inch wheels
• Cadillac CUE with Navigation. Natural Voice Recognition, capacitive touch, and hand gestures used on smart phones and tablets
• Safety Alert Seat, Forward Collision Alert, and Lane Departure Warning, along with available Side Blind Zone Alert with Rear Cross-Traffic Alert and full-speed-range adaptive cruise control
• HiPer Strut front suspension; compound-crank with Watts link rear suspension and Continuous Damping Control, which adjusts damping every two milliseconds for optimal ride and handling in all conditions
• Standard premium Bose 10-channel audio system with: active noise cancellation.

Interior:

• Eight-inch configurable instrument and driver information displays, offering four configurations ranging from elegantly simple to technologically enhanced information
• LED-powered accent lighting in the instrument panel and doors

Front Seats

• 8-way power driver and passenger seat
• Driver and passenger seat with power adjustable lumbar support
• Multi-level heating driver and passenger seat

Comfort

• Dual zone climate controls - driver and passenger
• Heated steering wheel

Roof and Glass

• Speed sensitive wipers

Safety Features

• Xenon high intensity discharge headlamp
• Adaptive headlights

While the configurable instrument and driver information displays are very cool, is there anything here that isn't already available on less expensive cars? And has anyone been in a car where the active noise cancellation actually makes a difference? (I had a 2011 Infiniti M56 with this feature, and it still had more road noise than the Equus, LS460, BMW 550i, MB E550, and my current Rav4 EV.)

Where's the head's-up display that I've been able to get on the Buick Lacrosse since at least 2011? Where are features like active night view assist (Merceses-Benz)? Where's the Mark Levinson-equivalent sound system (Lexus LS460)? Etc., etc., etc...

For a minimum $35,000 premium over a fully-loaded Volt (and a minimum $2,000 premium over a fully-loaded CTS-V coupe), should we expect more? Are we being unreasonable expecting a $76k - $90k (plus tax) car to be more than what the ELR offers? I haven't decided, yet. Perhaps if there's some secret internal trickery with the lease rates that get them down to $850 or less per month, I may take the plunge.

 

[brianman]

6) Volt accelerates 0-60 in 8 seconds, and GM says ELR does it in 7 seconds - fractionally better

Nitpick: "Fractionally" is not the first word that comes to mind when I look at "1". "Whole number" and "integer" come to mind.

 

[Blastphemy]

Nitpick: "Fractionally" is not the first word that comes to mind when I look at "1". "Whole number" and "integer" come to mind.

A 25% improvement in performance is a fractional (1/4) improvement. If the ELR accelerated 0-60 in 4 seconds, then that would be a 100% improvement over the Volt, and therefore would not be just fractionally better!

 

[Blastphemy]

I called the number for ordering the Saks Fifth Avenue ELR and got this information:

- It costs $89,500.00 inclusive of the destination charge; but sales tax, document fees, DMV, etc. are extra.
- Comes fully loaded with all available packages.
- Only comes in White Diamond Tricoat (which will not be offered for the regular ELR).
- Offers customers a choice of Light Cashmere or Jet Black interiors.
- Includes a Cadillac-branded 240V EVSE and up to $3,000 of installation costs.
- Gives access to a dedicated Saks Fifth Avenue ELR concierge phone line.
- Only available to U.S. residents.
- Limited to 100 cars.
- The person to whom I spoke was not aware of any lease rates, nor if leasing would even be possible for this version.
- The person also didn't know if the car would have a Saks Fifth Avenue badge on the car.

Here's the link, in case you're interested:
http://emails.cadillac.com/w/webVie...QUlRDLk5FVA__&si=&mv=H&bv=H&oc=H&sc=&k=16N8G_

If my local Cadillac dealership is correct about the regular fully-loaded MSRP of $83,145, then a customer would be paying a $6,355 premium for the exclusive white exterior, EVSE (wall charger), and special phone line. I guess if a customer doesn't already have an EVSE, then this isn't such a bad premium for someone who wants the fully-loaded version.

But I don't expect that $75,995 - $83,145 price range to hold for long, so I think anyone who pays full price to Saks is out of his/her mind. I think Cadillac will sell the first few hundred non-Saks ELRs to people who've got the cash and don't care about the ridiculous premium over the Volt, but then it will struggle to find additional customers without aggressive incentives.

 

[mnx]

Sounds similar to the premium people paid Tesla for a signature.

(ducks and runs).

I called the number for ordering the Saks Fifth Avenue ELR and got this information:

- It costs $89,500.00 inclusive of the destination charge; but sales tax, document fees, DMV, etc. are extra.
- Comes fully loaded with all available packages.
- Only comes in White Diamond Tricoat (which will not be offered for the regular ELR).
- Offers customers a choice of Light Cashmere or Jet Black interiors.
- Includes a Cadillac-branded 240V EVSE and up to $3,000 of installation costs.
- Gives access to a dedicated Saks Fifth Avenue ELR concierge phone line.
- Only available to U.S. residents.
- Limited to 100 cars.
- The person to whom I spoke was not aware of any lease rates, nor if leasing would even be possible for this version.
- The person also didn't know if the car would have a Saks Fifth Avenue badge on the car.

Here's the link, in case you're interested:
http://emails.cadillac.com/w/webVie...QUlRDLk5FVA__&si=&mv=H&bv=H&oc=H&sc=&k=16N8G_

If my local Cadillac dealership is correct about the regular fully-loaded MSRP of $83,145, then a customer would be paying a $6,355 premium for the exclusive white exterior, EVSE (wall charger), and special phone line. I guess if a customer doesn't already have an EVSE, then this isn't such a bad premium for someone who wants the fully-loaded version.

But I don't expect that $75,995 - $83,145 price range to hold for long, so I think anyone who pays full price to Saks is out of his/her mind. I think Cadillac will sell the first few hundred non-Saks ELRs to people who've got the cash and don't care about the ridiculous premium over the Volt, but then it will struggle to find additional customers without aggressive incentives.

 

[stopcrazypp]

If my local Cadillac dealership is correct about the regular fully-loaded MSRP of $83,145, then a customer would be paying a $6,355 premium for the exclusive white exterior, EVSE (wall charger), and special phone line. I guess if a customer doesn't already have an EVSE, then this isn't such a bad premium for someone who wants the fully-loaded version.

I guess Cadillac PR is just really bad at presenting their numbers. Most of the articles I read present the Saks Fifth Avenue version as being a $15k premium for the white exterior, EVSE, and phone line. That it was fully loaded was kind of glossed over (and I'm pretty sure most of the people didn't know the fully loaded price).

 

[mknox]

Sounds similar to the premium people paid Tesla for a signature.

I was thinking the same thing!

I wouldn't count the Caddy out just yet. I certainly did a lot of hand wringing and soul searching before I clicked the order button on my Model S and wondered whether it was going to be a success or not at that price. It sure turned out to be! However, there are still those out there who would like to drive electric but have the comfort of an ICE backup. They may also go through a hand wringing exercise over the ELR's price. We'll just have to see whether it's a market success or not over time.

 

[JST]

The price that Cadillac is asking for the ELR is so totally divorced from reality that it's hard to take it seriously. At that price, the ELR is the de facto flagship of the entire Cadillac range. As others have noted, it's more expensive than the CTS-V (though I suppose the next gen CTS-V will go up in price). And the flagship of your range is a small coupe that looks like it should slot between the ATS and CTS (I am being generous) and offers performance hardly better than the cheapest engine in the entry level model (i.e., the 2.5L rental fleet special in the ATS)? What!?

It's hard to imagine Cadillac intenders being swayed into this over a CTS coupe or the (incredibly well-received) new '14 CTS. It's hard to imagine hybrid buyers spending the money on this over a Volt. It's hard to imagine die-hard electric car enthusiasts buying this over a Tesla. So, who is this car for, exactly?

I'd absolutely love to see the marketing materials underpinning this. I imagine they'd be fascinating.

 

[mknox]

It's hard to imagine Cadillac intenders being swayed into this over a CTS coupe or the (incredibly well-received) new '14 CTS. It's hard to imagine hybrid buyers spending the money on this over a Volt. It's hard to imagine die-hard electric car enthusiasts buying this over a Tesla. So, who is this car for, exactly?

My previous car was a CTS and I absolutely loved it. If not for the Model S I would for sure have bought either another CTS or the ELR and would probably lean towards the ELR. So while not for everyone, there's at least one who would consider it.:wink:

 

[scottf200]

My previous car was a CTS and I absolutely loved it. If not for the Model S I would for sure have bought either another CTS or the ELR and would probably lean towards the ELR. So while not for everyone, there's at least one who would consider it.:wink:

I was driving my Volt last week and at a stoplight an existing cadillac owner was next to me. He motioned me to roll down my window. Then proceeded to ask me if I would pull over to talk about the Volt and ELR. I did and even let him test drive my Volt. He has a ELR on order (already) but wanted to know some more about the difference, ride, and power. We exchanged numbers and he is going to call me for a drive when it comes in in Jan (or was that Feb).

I'm anxious to see what the different powertrain numbers feel like as well as active noise cancellaton and adaptive cruise control.

I'm looking to replace my Ford Expedition with a Model X and give my Volt to my wife. The Volt (and GM) has been impressive tho.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think they will sell every last one they make (they aren't making that many in the first place). The only question is what price (I'm guessing that there will be plenty of incentives).

 

[Blastphemy]

Then proceeded to ask me if I would pull over to talk about the Volt and ELR. I did and even let him test drive my Volt. He has a ELR on order (already) but wanted to know some more about the difference, ride, and power. We exchanged numbers and he is going to call me for a drive when it comes in in Jan (or was that Feb).

I'm anxious to see what the different powertrain numbers feel like as well as active noise cancellation and adaptive cruise control.

I would have told him the ELR has less range than my Volt, has two fewer doors than my Volt, has the same front-wheel drive as my Volt, has the same number of seats as my Volt (but less overall room), has a small trunk instead of my Volt's spacious hatchback, accelerates 0-60 one second faster than my Volt, and has Forward Collision Alert & Lane Departure Warning just like the 2014 Volt.

However, if he feels it's worth $42,000+ more to get Side Blind Zone Alert, Rear Cross-Traffic Alert, full-speed-range adaptive cruise control, online programmable charging schedules and energy-efficiency reports, the C.U.E. infotainment system, 20-inch wheels, HiPer Strut front suspension, compound-crank with Watts link rear suspension and Continuous Damping Control, active noise cancellation (which may mask some engine noise but won't help with road noise), LED-powered accent lighting in the instrument panel and doors, 8-way heated & cooled power front seats with power adjustable lumbar support, dual-zone climate controls, a heated steering wheel, speed-sensitive wipers, full LED Xenon high-intensity adaptive headlamps, full LED tail lamps, and a concierge phone number just for ELR owners, then he should be happy come January.

Personally, I think all of that is worth about $20,000 more, but not $42,000+ more ($40,850 for a fully-loaded Volt vs. $83,145 for a fully-loaded ELR, although if you just add Los Angeles sales tax, that'd be $44,833 vs. $91,252 for a difference of $46,000+).

I wonder if the ELR will have a reverse camera that works (because the Volt's is terrible). I still can't imagine what Chevrolet was thinking when it selected that model and decided how it would work. I have a car from 2006 that has a better backup camera than the 2014 Volt! Let's hope the ELR improves on that, too.

 

[JST]

I think they will sell every last one they make (they aren't making that many in the first place). The only question is what price (I'm guessing that there will be plenty of incentives).

They probably will, though that last sentence is the kicker. I remember some of the deals that were being offered on year-old, brand new Chrysler-TCs-by-Maserati--it wouldn't surprise me if the ELR ends up in the same place.

The car is just so hilariously overmatched at that price point that it really feels like GM wants it to crater for some reason.

 

[BestRadar]

I absolutely love this car and as a past Cadillac customer (CTS, STS & SRX) I would be all over this car if they designed it with 5 seats. Being based on the Volt platform its too small for me being that every once and I while I need to takes the kids with me and I need seating for 5. I have had my eye on the Model S but with no real lease programs its out of my monthly budget still.

 

[polyphase]

However, if he feels it's worth $42,000+ more to get Side Blind Zone Alert, Rear Cross-Traffic Alert, full-speed-range adaptive cruise control, online programmable charging schedules and energy-efficiency reports, the C.U.E. infotainment system, 20-inch wheels, HiPer Strut front suspension, compound-crank with Watts link rear suspension and Continuous Damping Control, active noise cancellation (which may mask some engine noise but won't help with road noise), LED-powered accent lighting in the instrument panel and doors, 8-way heated & cooled power front seats with power adjustable lumbar support, dual-zone climate controls, a heated steering wheel, speed-sensitive wipers, full LED Xenon high-intensity adaptive headlamps, full LED tail lamps, and a concierge phone number just for ELR owners, then he should be happy come January.

LOL. LOL, not like those damn sexting kids, but actually laugh out loud. It reminded me of a fantastic Bruce McCall piece in National Lampoon back in the 70's and thanks to the wonders of the internet...here it is! The 1958 Bulgemobiles are here!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4639091-Archive-1958-Bulgemobile-Catalog-(Rare-Find...)

Use the link for the whole thing. You'll snort your coffee out your nose going through this.