SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Because the vendor does not pay more for 'gasoline' if you pump faster.
Learn about demand charges
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California bans per-minute billing; Tesla Superchargers will need displays
- Thread starter FlatSix911
- Start date
Learn about demand charges
There are good reasons to have a per minute charge in addition to a kWh charge. Spaces are limited and the equipment to expand a site costs money. So, to me, it is reasonable that a car which can only charge at say a 50 kW rate should pay more than one that can charge at 4 times that speed even if the get the same total number of kWh. It occupies a valuable space for longer.
I thought that was allowed. But they have to charge by the kWh for the power. They can charge by the minute for the parking/idle time.
cpa
Active Member
I have to object to your comment. Charging speeds are beyond our control. Sometimes the weather reduces speeds. Sometimes the battery is cold. Sometimes we are forced to share current because we are the second to plug in. Sometimes Tesla's equipment is not functioning properly, so we are forced to take what the equipment can deliver. Finally, many of us have older models that have had our Supercharging rates clipped by Tesla via a software update. Last year, a charge from ~20% to 70-75% would take about 35-40 minutes. Today, after this software update that clipped speeds, the same amount of charging takes about an hour.
It is unreasonable for Tesla to charge an occupancy fee in addition to the Supercharging fees. While newer vehicles do not experience reduced speeds, based upon Tesla's past behavior, what is to say that in another 3-4 years' time, Tesla pulls the same stunt and caps Supercharging speeds on Model 3 cars at 80kW?
1. It will be a standard that everyone has to comply with, which means if your car can theoretically charge at multiple networks, you can see the price at each station as you go by without having to download each network's app just to know if its prices are cheaper that day.
2. It will make Tesla network prices visible to people who do not own Teslas, so that they will know how badly some other DCFC networks overcharge.
They aren't requiring large signs that can be seen from the street.. Just a small display on each stall. So unless they stop and get out to look at a stall they still won't know.
That's ridiculous that functionality is already on the display in the car. you can see what you're being billed on the display in your car while your supercharging. Non Tesla vehicles can't use superchargers so it really doesn't have to have a display on the supercharger itself any vehicle that is connected to it has the information available on its screen in the vehicle.
You can't make one law for Tesla and one for everybody else. Further, you need the measurement system to be certified - which it won't be in a car.
It's about time that this happens. Charging by the minute is just stupid, and leads to bad incentives for the charging service supplier. Hopefully the rest of the continent follows.
I should note... I'm not against some extra parking fee, if charging is below a certain rate. Selling price should reflect the cost drivers - which are partially the power and partially the use of the equipment and space. As charging gets faster, and as chargers become more common, the space/equipment costs will drop dramatically, leaving just the cost of power/fuel - as it is with gas stations.
Actually it would be pretty cool if Tesla put up a huge sign listing each stall charging rate and other stats. It would make it easy for the waiter to see which cars are about to be done and leaving soon.
Something like this...
https://electrek.co/2020/01/07/update-californias-ban-on-per-minute-billing-what-you-need-to-know/Tesla Superchargers can comply with a central display
DMS says under the regulation, operators with multiple EVSEs installed at one location can use a central display to show the required information for each EVSE. So rather than affix a display to each individual Supercharger stall, imagine one central “leader-board” listing each stall number, the price per kWh, the stall’s kW capacity, and — most significantly — a running meter of how many kWhs that stall has delivered to the car currently plugged in. This latter requirement will change the dynamics at Superchargers, as presently there is no way to know how long a Tesla has been charging at a particular stall. We picture something like this:
Something like this...
Oh wow. Yeah that! So if the Supercharger is in Nevada, could they add in a betting element?
Handicapping and such too.. who is going to leave first.. place your bet!
linux-works
Active Member
dude, "handicapping" is not the proper nomenclature.
"electrically challenged", please.
(the dude abides)
"electrically challenged", please.
(the dude abides)
What you can do is not make a law at all. how's that 9/10 of a cent working out for you that we've been getting ripped off for for decades funny how they can charge you a denomination of money that doesn't exist.
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Get ready for the next money grab by the state of California... once the kWh metering is ready, a fuel tax will be added shortly after.
cpa
Active Member
Get ready for the next money grab by the state of California... once the kWh metering is ready, a fuel tax will be added shortly after.
Yer darn tootin'.
Anybody who put a reasonable amount of thought into CA-DMS getting involved with EV charging would come to the conclusion that EV fuel tax was inevitable on DMS-compliant stations. However, it also allows for point of delivery LCFS credits, which could offset some of the taxes and effectively move money from one State agency to another. Home charging would be mostly immune to this kind of fuel tax.Get ready for the next money grab by the state of California... once the kWh metering is ready, a fuel tax will be added shortly after.
Agree and also disagree. While charging per minute may be 'stupid', the market should decide. If one of the EV charging companies wants to rip people off, they won't last long in the market. If a mom-and-pop bodega wants to charge $5.00/minute to cover their overhead and make an obscene profit, why not let 'em? As long as they post prices clearly, let the buyer beware. And if Tesla wants to charge by kW only, so be it. If others want to charge by minute/seconds connected and by kW used, have at it.
IMO, instead of mandating one-size-fits-all, the State regulators could have just mandated posting clear pricing, just like gasoline/diesel stations.
I would also reject the notion that it is stupid. Assuming all else is equal, a Model S that charges from 80% to 100% every day fills a supercharger stall for 35 minutes, whereas one that charges from 20% to 40% takes 8 minutes. They consume the same amount of power, but one of them is tying up the stall for 4.5x as a long as the other. It makes sense to charge some sort of time-based premium to encourage people to use limited HVDC charging resources as efficiently as is practical.
That said, if you have two cars, one of which is limited to 50 kW charging speeds and the other of which can charge at up to 250 kW, it doesn't make sense to charge the one drawing 5x as much power the same amount simply because both cars both occupied the stall for the same amount of time.
There's likely some happy medium between metering by time and by power consumption, and the California government really should stay the heck out of these sorts of decisions, because all they can do is create an even bigger mess.
