California, calls and signatures needed to stop EV fee's of $165 per EV per year!!

[Ulmo]

Maybe we should tax tires. This would make it more fair than a flat fee per mile. Different vehicles and drive styles cause more or less road damage.
If you drive like a hooligan, you cause more road damage. Your tires wear out quickly and you pay more. Big semis that cause the most road wear and tear pay much more as they have up to 18 wheels rather than 4. If you drive conservative your tires will last 50k miles and you pay less.

Does that make sense or is that stupid?

What about $400 per tire tires that last 10,000 miles vs. $50 per tire tires that last 50,000 miles? Do the softer tires that wear out quicker do more damage to roads?

 

[Ulmo]

If the Government would just spend all the road taxes on roads, instead of light rail, trollies, high speed rail, busses and other transports that pay Zero road taxes, our roads would be in much better shape.

Buses should be outlawed. They're stupid. At the very least, they should pay their proportional road damage tax, same as garbage trucks and every other heavy vehicle that does disproportionate damage to roads.

 

[SageBrush]

Over the full life cycle, most of the pollution generated by any car
is principally caused by building the car itself than using it.

Far from true

 

[SageBrush]

Buses should be outlawed. They're stupid. At the very least, they should pay their proportional road damage tax, same as garbage trucks and every other heavy vehicle that does disproportionate damage to roads.

In what way are commercial trucks paying for road use proportional to the damage they cause ?

 

[NikeWings]

Please do not fall for the hysteria of the anti-government forces who are urging you, in an organized campaign, to keep EV owners from paying their fair share. Eliminating all special treatment of EV owners will normalize EV ownership.

So I assume, you do not use the car pool lane, did not apply for the CARB rebate or any of the Fed tax credits, do not use other select privileges offered by certain municipalities like free parking, charging or discounted off peak utility rates?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Buses should be outlawed. They're stupid. At the very least, they should pay their proportional road damage tax, same as garbage trucks and every other heavy vehicle that does disproportionate damage to roads.

Well buses at least have the potential to reduce the number of cars on the road. And they are critical for poorer urban families who cannot afford a car and a place to park it.

The large semi trucks are the ones that really haven't been paying their fair share.

 

[SageBrush]

The large semi trucks are the ones that really haven't been paying their fair share.

Exactly

It is just another fossil fuel subsidy that distorts the economy.

 

[Boatguy]

The collection method ought to be privacy protecting. The entities I need privacy protection from are generally gangs, including political, religious, commercial, and other ones. So, you're probably right about the "contentious" part if Azuga is any indication.

I agree which is why I opted for self reporting. First with the smartphone app, then later just buying miles in advance and mailing in a photo of my odometer.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

The tire tax is interesting...
But I have 2 sets of wheels and a set of tires that I get maybe 100 miles off of public roads and 1500 or so on public roads. the majority of the wear is in the 100 miles off taxed roads

 

[gregd]

What about $400 per tire tires that last 10,000 miles vs. $50 per tire tires that last 50,000 miles? Do the softer tires that wear out quicker do more damage to roads?

I expect that different tires have dramatically different effects on roads, with the studded ones probably an order or two in magnitude worse, especially if misused. So, this is an impractical gauge with which to levy a tax. Also not all variety of tire wear ratings are available in all sizes, so many cars would be taxed more (or less) than fair depending on what happens to be made for them. Interesting "outside the box" idea, but I would not support it.

 

[Lloyd]

If they want to promote the adoption of EV's, then yes they should give them a pass. When the numbers are high enough, then fair adoption of a fee schedule should be passed. It seem silly to give an EV rebate from one side of the government to promote their use, and then form a special tax for their use. Just My Opinion. JMO

 

[Eclectic]

So I assume, you do not use the car pool lane, did not apply for the CARB rebate or any of the Fed tax credits, do not use other select privileges offered by certain municipalities like free parking, charging or discounted off peak utility rates?

In the same way that Warren Buffet voluntarily paid what he thought the right tax was for his level of wealth.

 

[stopcrazypp]

If they want to promote the adoption of EV's, then yes they should give them a pass. When the numbers are high enough, then fair adoption of a fee schedule should be passed. It seem silly to give an EV rebate from one side of the government to promote their use, and then form a special tax for their use. Just My Opinion. JMO

It does seem silly, but then on the other hand, it makes the pill easier to swallow. If they wait until EV subsidies end, it'll be a double impact and make people fight against the fees more.

 

[RobertF]

I own 1, soon to be 2 Tesla's. My problem is the tax doesn't appear fair. There is no rebate for reduced health costs/ lives saved, reduced clean air costs, reduced electric usage/costs/savings when charged during off peak hours, reduced deaths/injuries/accidents from numerous safety features, etc. Not sure what fair would be but seems to me the cost reductions outweigh the expenses

 

[Lloyd]

Compared to what California and its citizens have PAID to promote clean air, the very small tax they will collect IS crazy. They will call it a fee, however so we dont get a say in its adoption.

 

[cpa]

Compared to what California and its citizens have PAID to promote clean air, the very small tax they will collect IS crazy. They will call it a fee, however so we dont get a say in its adoption.

That is right: California--the land of the fee.

 

[Boatguy]

I own 1, soon to be 2 Tesla's. My problem is the tax doesn't appear fair. There is no rebate for reduced health costs/ lives saved, reduced clean air costs, reduced electric usage/costs/savings when charged during off peak hours, reduced deaths/injuries/accidents from numerous safety features, etc. Not sure what fair would be but seems to me the cost reductions outweigh the expenses

Great point. But we follow that logic we'd need to double the existing gas taxes, and probably treble the taxes on diesel (ask London!). And while we're at it we could increases taxes for every "externality" (as the economist call them) for every product, from beer to butter. That would be a perfect world from the view of an economist, but it's never going to happen.

Here is what I've heard proposed:

1) Tax electricity. This would be nice as it penalizes "kWh guzzlers" and benefits "kWh economy". This is the most analogous to the current gas tax. The problem is that the existing infrastructure can't differentiate the kWh consumer, the grid doesn't know an EV from a baking oven.

2) Tax some proxy for road impact, like tires. No really any great proxies.

3) Tax mileage at a rate that considers the weight of the vehicle based on some well documented cause/effect relationship between vehicle weight and road wear.

a) The weight piece works fine for passenger cars, probably not quite so well for trucks (unloaded weight versus loaded weight), but without all the data it's hard to say. I supposed the truck tax could make some assumptions about average load, but since pickups are the most popular vehicle in the U.S., there will be a lot of debate about whether they drive around empty or full.

b) Tracking mileage automatically in real time triggers a big privacy concern. Tracking it manually is a nuisance (based on my experience in the CA pilot) and has issues with out of state driving which are even worse in smaller states where people cross state borders more frequently.​

Here's another idea. Require the car itself to keep track of miles driven in each state and report it quarterly to some clearing house. All EVs are network connected and have GPSs (or could have at negligible cost). So the car knows where it is driving and can accumulate the miles driven in each state and then report it, just the VIN and miles driven in each state, to some clearing house which could report to the taxing jurisdictions and probably net out the inter-state payments as well.

This method puts a little burden on the manufacturer, none on the owner, automates the entire process and would not infringe on privacy issues. Include hybrids in the requirement, though I suspect their days are numbered.

We all want good roads and we can't expect to get them for free. If you don't like the amount of the tax, or how the tax dollars are being spent, take it up with your elected representative.

 

[apacheguy]

Fact remains that 18-wheeler big rigs cause the vast majority of the damage to our highways and they aren't taxed nearly enough to cover the cost of repairs that they necessitate.

 

[miimura]

Fact remains that 18-wheeler big rigs cause the vast majority of the damage to our highways and they aren't taxed nearly enough to cover the cost of repairs that they necessitate.

Yes, and trucking trade groups are likely to lobby way harder than any group representing private car owners to maintain the status-quo.

 

[deonb]

But you'd have to make sure people couldn't dodge the tax by buying tires out of state, etc. Those who wear out tires fastest would have the most incentive to cheat, especially commercial users like trucking companies.

Yeah, but those big trucks use 18 tires at a time. So unless you have access to some sort of cheap transport to supply your fleet, it would not be worth your while...

Oh. Wait.