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California DMV complaint over Tesla Autopilot/FSD
- Thread starter 2101Guy
- Start date
Moderator note: Moved about 20 posts to the politics quarantine thread. There's plenty of places to discuss politics, TMC isn't one of them.
Thanks,
Bruce.
Thanks,
Bruce.
The name change and descriptions are important for future buyers, I think the bigger threat is in reimbursing people who believe they were deceived by the marketing
BitJam
Active Member
Yes, many/most companies would go bankrupt if customers could sue for misleading marketing. Perhaps all software companies would go out of business if they were held liable for delays in reaching announced milestones.
IMO Tesla has been very clear about what AP and FSD can and cannot do. If someone feels deceived because they didn't read past the 3 words in large print then they got exactly what they deserve which does not include grounds for a lawsuit.
I am amazed that so many people consider "promised" software features as anything more than pie in the sky. There is an irony/contradiction here. On one hand Elon is castigated as being a liar and a terrible person in general. OTOH, for some reason (perhaps because of all the amazing things he has delivered when the world said it was impossible) people gave his incredible FSD claims more credence than they would give to any other software development team.
Like all of us, Elon is human. He does good things and bad things. He makes mistakes.
The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Tam
Well-Known Member
You are overthinking.
When the black and white TV was first invented in 1929. Then one year later, a company TVesla would sell me a color TV. It's not just a color TV, it's a Full Color TV to make sure I know that it's not a black and white TV or a partially color TV.
The problem was, in 1930, color TV was science fiction. No one could make a color TV then, and here, TVesla was selling me Full Color TV for $12,000!
When I got the Full Color TV in my living room, it was still a black and white TV no matter how many times the technician stopped by my home to do a software upgrade. That's because color TV was not invented until 1953, or 23 years after I paid for that TVesla Full Color TV.
Thus, when I paid $12,000, I didn't pay for a black and white TV. It doesn't matter how the TVesla does it, software/hardware... as long as I got a color TV.
Back to this thread. Self Driving Capability is science fiction. But a company named Tesla can sell me not just a Self Driving Capability but also a Full Self Driving Capability for $12,000.
The problem is it didn't drive on its own when I got it. It wouldn't drive on its own if I summon it from New York and my car is still in Los Angeles with no drivers.
I don't care how Tesla would do it, radar or radarless, Lidar or Lidarless, as long as the Full Self Driving Capability can drive without a driver, that would be fine.
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Tam
Well-Known Member
Some words are socially accepted:
"Hot dogs" is neither "hot" nor made of "dogs" when I pick them up from the refrigerator in a supermarket.
However, if there's no tuna in a Subway sandwich, it's being sued for that.
A U.S. judge rules that Subway can be sued over its '100% tuna' claim
If consumers are not sure what $12,000 can buy right now, the Tesla website explains:
It seems like the people that feel the most burned about his optimistic predictions, are also the same people that continue to pay attention to the deadlines of his continuing predictions. I wonder why that is.
I’ve been following Tesla since 2009, closely since 2014 and the first thing I learned when listening to Musk is all his predictions need to be taken with a grain of salt. (Make sure to drink a lot of water, and consult your doctor about excessive sodium intake.)
I personally love AP & FSD, I bet the majority do as well. However, I also, know for certain, there are customers out there that feel deceived, or more aptly described, ripped off by FSD. The ones I know personally, I’ve told them, personally it was their fault and they should be more discerning buyers. At the same time, Tesla should give them refunds. I believe it is the right thing to do. So if anything comes of this that would be my hope. If someone wants a refund on their software they can have one. Going forward maybe like Costco’s 90 day electronics return policy. If after 90 days, FSD, EAP don’t meet your expectations Tesla should give a refund.
You mean like the California DMV and NHTSA and FTC?
LOL at thinking that agencies that are TASKED at oversight of mfrs claims are supposed to just ignore deceptive marketing/deceptive practices..simply because the CEO is "too optimistic".
“These advertisements are a deceptive practice.”
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Well, that and a settlement amount paid to state of California, and a bunch of discovery and additional evidence supporting a nationwide class-action suit in District Court, which will also be settled to pay attorney fees and the class members.
That's assuming, of course, that you give no wait to statements made by the Company's CEO and "Techno-King."
No I think it was clear he was talking about people like you.
DOnt get mad at the messenger. Call the FTC, DMV, NHTSA and complain about unfair treatment to your lord and saviour elon.
DarkForest
10.69 made me a shill
That’s what the website told me when I bought the car.
How about this analogy: you have a ps3, and you preorder a game. The CEO promises it’ll be epic. After several years of delays, they finally release the game, but it’s extremely disappointing and not what the CEO hyped up on Twitter at all. Years later, they release a better version of the same game for the ps4 that better matches what the CEO originally promised.
This is what I expect will happen with Tesla.
Please keep in mind, I’m not trying to convince you of anything. We disagree. That’s fine. I think I understand your perspective. The above analogy is my perspective.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Good analogy.
When PS3 was out, it cost $250 in 2006.
What if the ad says by paying double, $500, you would get one that would have a removable hard drive to store more games and DVR (Digital Video Recorder to record your game in action)?
Those who paid $500 for those 2 features got a PS3 and they wouldn't be able to enjoy them until PS4 would sell in 7 years later or in 2013 at the price of $500.
Thus, is it ethical to make those who pre-paid have to pay again for those 2 features?
That's the same with FSD. The car can drive fine with a driver if you didn't pay FSD. But if you paid $12,000 FSD, should you pay again when the car will be able to drive on its own?
Nah, more like this:
You want the new fantastic game and need to buy a PS3.
Delays ensue, no game, just a buggy beta not playable with no features.
Then after 6 years, Ps4 is released, still no game that works.
And then they say that the game will not ever run on your ps4 that anyway is closing on EOL..
You have me wondering how well FSD Beta is doing, crash wise. I would not be surprised if crashes/per mile while FSD is engaged is substantially better than average. As Beta improves and is rolled out more owners, the statistics will probably get even better.
This will put DMV in the untenable position of fighting to make cars less safe.
We all know, of course, that beta users are not a random sample. We have willingly sprung many kilo-dollars for what we knew is still vaporware, and then passed an annoyingly bizarre and long Safety Score driving test. And because beta is twitchy and sometimes downright scary, we watch it very, very carefully, and I for one often dial down it's selected speed, and very frequently override to disengage it. But I haven't let it crash yet, so my contribution to crashes per mile is a zero. With approaching 100,000 of us not very random drivers, FSD Beta's stats are probably already looking pretty darn good, when compared with more random driving.
Hmmm, if this is true, even if the promotions are "deceptive", if it deceives people into buying a safer car, do we really want to stop it?
On the other hand, as Beta gets better, we will become more complacent. So it better get better still, as Elon promises it will.
SW
DarkForest
10.69 made me a shill
My impression of what has happened and assumption of what will happen would be more like this:
The ad says you’ll get the removable hard drive and DVR functionality in your ps3 if you pay double. 7 years later when the ps4 comes out, they finally release an update to the ps3 to enable the USB port to support external hard drives and call that “support for removable hard drives” and they enable support for recording 5 second clips of your game action. And the ps4 ends up actually having the full functionality of everything the CEO hyped up on Twitter that the ps3 was supposed to have.
Is it ethical? Heck nah.
Is it legal? I don’t know. Maybe.
The key here is I suspect they’ll get it working well enough to be able to say they delivered on their promise. And then they’ll deliver an even better version on newer hardware that more closely matches what Elon actually pitched on Twitter.
Even if that doesn’t happen, I don’t see FSD ever being a “solved” problem. It can only be good enough, and Tesla will continue to iterate on it and need new hardware over time to do it.
For example, the beta can only see so far, whereas I might see traffic stopped on the highway a mile ahead (in good conditions). I would start slowing down immediately, but it wouldn’t slow down until the last moment.
I can learn that a particular lane is always forced to turn, so if I want to go straight, I need to stay in the other lane. The beta can’t do that at all right now.
FSD can’t talk to other cars to plan out stuff, and that’s something cars might do in the future.
And so on.
Good job. I remembered exactly the same thing when I saw the prior post, but I didn't follow through to track down a reference. We used to joke in school about these Blue Sky / Green Grass overlays.
I also remember, as a kid, watching Harry Reasoner (on ABC News or 60 Minutes) lament about how he got suckered into buying a kit for $5 advertised to "convert your black and white TV to color". He received a pint can of blue paint and a little brush.
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