California Renewable Energy Legislation / Progress

[McRat]

Some of your advantages are offset by the higher amount owed on the house. People buy by monthly payment -- that is the bottom line, and paying $40 more in the mortgage payment to save $80 in utility charges is a GOOD DEAL (tm) if it works out that way. After the sewer is cleaned in DC and CA regains its property tax deduction for federal taxes the financials will improve even more.

Perhaps the most attractive part of this legislation in terms of widespread PV is folding the cost of the PV into the mortgage. It completely undercuts the PV leasing business but that is IMHO a good thing. And being able to finance PV at home mortgage rates is a boon.

Our elected state politicians told us the new fed tax plan was going to screw the middle and lower class. They lied.

So why exactly, just a couple months later, do you assume they are any better at mathematics and financial calculations when there is something in it for them?

Trust but verify. Do the math on a solar system using the 2025 CPUC approved tariffs for NEM x.x. You don't know the 2025 tariffs? Well what do you know? Neither did the bureaucrat who submitted the $40/m saves $80/m numbers. They are asked to prove a certain point, and they generate a number.

Sort of like college chem lab experiments. It's always easier to start with the desired answer and work backwards if you want an A.

BTW - They are pushing the leasing in cities where it is already mandated, but must offer cash plans too. And let's get brutally honest. The definition of an idiot is somebody who finances a $15k purchase for 30 years (cost of mandate in nearby city).

 

[gene]

Our elected state politicians told us the new fed tax plan was going to screw the middle and lower class.

It did, and it will.

 

[McRat]

It did, and it will.

No, it didn't. The average Californian does not pay as much state taxes as the power brokers do. The state tax deduction covers them fine, then reduces their income tax rate.

In California, those who own a lot of real estate like the Pelosi and Feinstein families are extremely angry. Somebody just taxed the rich, and they want them DEAD!

 

[SageBrush]

I sure hope the CEC's estimate of $3/w is way, way too high.
Retail cost of panels + inverter is ~ 70 cents a watt --- today. And that includes the idiotic trump tariff that will be half in two years.

I know in my area we put up PV on standing roofs for $1 a watt total costs, albeit with free labor. Surely the construction industry can come close with economies of scale, lower permitting costs, lower electrician costs, and cookie cutter construction techniques.

 

[ohmman]

No, it didn't. The average Californian does not pay as much state taxes as the power brokers do. The state tax deduction covers them fine, then reduces their income tax rate.

In California, those who own a lot of real estate like the Pelosi and Feinstein families are extremely angry. Somebody just taxed the rich, and they want them DEAD!

And the moon landing was faked, and 9/11 was an inside job, and climate change is a Chinese hoax.

I received a huge tax break with the tax bill. The wealthy got an enormous break, you cannot spin it any other way.

 

[bkp_duke]

I sure hope the CEC's estimate of $3/w is way, way too high.
Retail cost of panels + inverter is ~ 70 cents a watt --- today. And that includes the idiotic trump tariff that will be half in two years.

We are long past the equipment being the largest portion of the cost of a rooftop solar installation. It's labor now.

Perhaps that is the reasoning behind the Dems sanctuary state law: lots of illegal aliens for cheap labor for all these solar installations.

 

[bkp_duke]

And the moon landing was faked, and 9/11 was an inside job, and climate change is a Chinese hoax.

I received a huge tax break with the tax bill. The wealthy got an enormous break, you cannot spin it any other way.

Just because the wealthy got a tax break doesn't mean other classes didn't as well.

Hrm, the wealthy (top 10%) pay more than 50% of the taxes. Yeah, I would say even though they did get a tax break, it was fair that they do, as long as the other classes do as well (and gosh golly, the data shows they did).

 

[ohmman]

Just because the wealthy got a tax break doesn't mean other classes didn't as well.

Hrm, the wealthy (top 10%) pay more than 50% of the taxes. Yeah, I would say even though they did get a tax break, it was fair that they do, as long as the other classes do as well (and gosh golly, the data shows they did).

He specifically said the wealthy were taxed, and I was responding to him.

Regarding whether the wealthy “deserve” a bigger break, I was raised to believe that when I have more than enough food on my plate, I don’t take refills until everyone else is fed.

 

[bkp_duke]

He specifically said the wealthy were taxed, and I was responding to him.

Regarding whether he wealthy “deserve” a bigger break, I was raised to believe that when I have more than enough food on my plate, I don’t take refills until everyone else is fed.

Yep, and with the current tax changes, everyone is getting fed. Dems just don't like to admit that, but the recent swing in the polls (even CNN) has shown that people are seeing the benefits of the tax breaks.

Now, can we pay for those tax breaks? Well, that's an entirely different conversation altogether.

 

[SageBrush]

The Germans have removed most (?all) residential PV subsidy. The commercial installers have responded by cutting costs to about $1.5 a watt. New home installation will be less.

And I'll say it again: the PV rules are wonderful, but they are only part of the package. Overall home energy conservation is no less important. Go California !

 

[ohmman]

Yep, and with the current tax changes, everyone is getting fed.

You should do some work in your local underserved communities. I think you’re maybe insulated from their reality.

Back on topic, @SageBrush - CalGreen standards are being updated next year and they are the next step forward in building efficiency (and waste diversion). There is a roadmap to continue these design changes.

 

[SageBrush]

This initiative is going to change the dynamics of selling a home that does not have PV. Like a home with only an out-house.

 

[McRat]

And the moon landing was faked, and 9/11 was an inside job, and climate change is a Chinese hoax.

I received a huge tax break with the tax bill. The wealthy got an enormous break, you cannot spin it any other way.

That's not what Jerry and Friends said. They said people in California will get raped due to the cap on state income/property/sales tax deductions.

So either you own very little real estate, and/or don't make much income, or use California shelters (like Pelosi's mansion/farm that sells $10k in grapes a year), Jerry's Kids said you got spanked.

BTW - I worked at Rockwell during the manned space days, I know that steel weakens starting at 550°F, and I know we all died in the 1980's because >5 billion humans would kill us all off.

 

[rays427]

The Germans have removed most (?all) residential PV subsidy. The commercial installers have responded by cutting costs to about $1.5 a watt. New home installation will be less.

And I'll say it again: the PV rules are wonderful, but they are only part of the package. Overall home energy conservation is no less important. Go California !

They also pay one of the highest rates for their electricity. The problem is that the utilities must maintain high levels of output for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow. Electric storage also adds to the cost for the same reason.

 

[SageBrush]

They also pay one of the highest rates for their electricity.

That is a different discussion, and has nothing to do with commercial installer prices.

 

[bkp_duke]

That is a different discussion, and has nothing to do with commercial installer prices.

Actually, the two are not completely disconnected. Because of the high electricity rates, installers know they can play the "it takes X years for payback on your system" game and they don't have to compete as much on price. I.e. there is always demand for their services.

It's still very common to see package prices in the $3.50-4.50 per watt range here, which is relatively unchanged in the past 3 years, despite panel prices dropping like a stone.

Friends of mine in other states, conversely, have seen quoted prices drop over the past 3 years as panel prices have dropped.

 

[rays427]

That is a different discussion, and has nothing to do with commercial installer prices.

The thing is as they install more solar even at cheap rates the Utility companies need to maintain supply for those days that the sun doesn't shine. So installing more solar even at very cheap rates doesn't necessarily cut the overall cost of electricity much. They basically need to subsidize the utility companies to make sure they have enough to cover the days with little output from the sun and wind.

 

[McRat]

Actually, the two are not completely disconnected. Because of the high electricity rates, installers know they can play the "it takes X years for payback on your system" game and they don't have to compete as much on price. I.e. there is always demand for their services.

It's still very common to see package prices in the $3.50-4.50 per watt range here, which is relatively unchanged in the past 3 years, despite panel prices dropping like a stone.

Friends of mine in other states, conversely, have seen quoted prices drop over the past 3 years as panel prices have dropped.

$1/kWh is comedy. You can't hit that with crap 0.50/kWh panels. If somebody donated all the hardware, you might hit $1/kWh on a house.

Unless you are buying a a large 480vac or higher industrial system, ain't NOBODY getting $1 a watt for a 240vac roof mount solar system, even with factory 2nd's for panels, low MPH rated racking, off-the-books labor, and a single poor quality inverter even with low permit and engineering fees. Just ain't happening. You aren't buying panels by the container, racking is not cheap to buy or install. Just the engineering stamp is about $500-750, and the city can charge you whatever they like for the permit.

 

[bkp_duke]

$1/kWh is comedy. You can't hit that with crap 0.50/kWh panels. If somebody donated all the hardware, you might hit $1/kWh on a house.

Unless you are buying a a large 480vac or higher industrial system, ain't NOBODY getting $1 a watt for a 240vac roof mount solar system, even with factory 2nd's for panels, low MPH rated racking, off-the-books labor, and a single poor quality inverter even with low permit and engineering fees. Just ain't happening. You aren't buying panels by the container, racking is not cheap to buy or install. Just the engineering stamp is about $500-750, and the city can charge you whatever they like for the permit.

I'm assuming you are quoting the wrong person, because I didn't mention anything about $1 per watt.

 

[SageBrush]

The thing is

Utility pricing has nothing to do with residential installation costs.