Brando
Active Member
I think - anyone verity?? - PG&E now has plan to close all coal plants with battery storage. Natural Gas peaker plants already being replace.
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California renewable energy production with falling demand
- Thread starter RubberToe
- Start date
AFAIK there have been no operating coal plants in California for many years. Any coal generation would be imported from other states like Utah. There has been some consternation about some contracts between LADWP and a Utah coal plant recently. I don't recall the details.
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
CA ISO's supply page still shows some coal, separate from imports: 17-MW as I type. I think it's from Argus Cogen, a 63-MW plant.
List of power stations in California - Wikipedia
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
Flexibility is good, but human nature is what it is and people like to be comfortable wherever they are. In much of California for much of the year, that means lots of air conditioning in the evening, when the sun has set but temperatures are still high. Hence evening ramp, and the need for storage.
Yesterday's ramp was particularly large: 14-GW over 3-hr. The weather was relatively cool and windy, so it looks like solar curtailment started as early as 07:30 and didn't end until 17:00.
It would help of our Tesla cars could be used to flatten power demand. Why hasn't that function been made available?
cpa
Active Member
I cannot speak to southern Europe, but I can speak to much of California. The hot part of the day starts around 3:00PM and lasts well into the evening hours before it cools down. Adapting working hours is always a possibility, but I am not convinced that folks will want to work from 6AM to 3PM.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
It doesn't work that way at present.
Utilities pick the cheapest power, and progressively add on more expensive sources until the load is met. If you look at CAISO e.g., the first ~ 11 GW is reserved for fossils, I presume contracts.
With all the discussion of California adding huge amounts of battery capacity, I'm trying to locate CAISO (or other) information that shows the daily amount of energy storage being utilized to soak up the solar PV and then dispatch it during later hours. Perhaps @dazizmor could help with a link? Nice to have someone from the CPUC lurking too.
The starting point was the page that updatest every 5-10 minutes that shows that batteries are either charging or discharging, and how much:
California ISO - Supply
While the above shows a real time display of charging or discharging, what I would really like to see is archived data of that over time. Similar to the daily renewables watch data shown here that I use to check overall solar PV, wind, versus total power. This data doesn't include any battery data though:
California ISO - Renewables and emissions reports
There is a whole lot of very dense data related to operations of the system, power pricing, etc. But I couldn't find the storage charging and discharging data I was looking for.
A search turned up a report that came out today of all things (mentions CPUC too)! This discusses energy storage, how much will be coming online by 2023, and how to effectively allow for market pricing:
http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Ener...se4-Presentation-May8-2020.pdf#search=battery
I would like to be able to track, over time, how fast the battery storage is getting deployed, and how much of the curtailed SPV generation is being shifted to later in the day. Yeah, I know, exciting stuff
Any links would be appreciated.
RT
The starting point was the page that updatest every 5-10 minutes that shows that batteries are either charging or discharging, and how much:
California ISO - Supply
While the above shows a real time display of charging or discharging, what I would really like to see is archived data of that over time. Similar to the daily renewables watch data shown here that I use to check overall solar PV, wind, versus total power. This data doesn't include any battery data though:
California ISO - Renewables and emissions reports
There is a whole lot of very dense data related to operations of the system, power pricing, etc. But I couldn't find the storage charging and discharging data I was looking for.
A search turned up a report that came out today of all things (mentions CPUC too)! This discusses energy storage, how much will be coming online by 2023, and how to effectively allow for market pricing:
http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Ener...se4-Presentation-May8-2020.pdf#search=battery
I would like to be able to track, over time, how fast the battery storage is getting deployed, and how much of the curtailed SPV generation is being shifted to later in the day. Yeah, I know, exciting stuff
Any links would be appreciated.
RT
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
It is exciting !
Perhaps you can follow the fossil generation as a fraction of the total load during the peak. That is the end point after all
So you can download the supply data for batteries, as shown below. You can include any of the sources that you want too. I'm not adept at web based scripting that would be able to pull out the historical data from the web page. I assume this could be done though? Here is the battery data from yesterday:
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
It looks like you can request CSV data for any date in the past. For example:
Code:
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SP/History/20200507/storage.csv
=>
Time,Batteries
00:00,-49
00:05,-58
00:10,-50
00:15,-31
00:20,0
00:25,0
00:30,0
00:35,-1
00:40,0
...Does that help?
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
This is the kind of modeling I'd hoped to see.
Wärtsilä Atlas for 100% Renewable Energy
However I'm not sure exactly how many GWh of batteries they're projecting when they call for 8-hr of storage. Around 200-GWh?
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
The article I read showed storage as a fraction of consumption for different geographic regions. For NM/AZ it was modeled at 8%. In the case of CA though I would be skeptical of their results if off-shore wind becomes a serious player because it has a much different power curve than land based power.
I also presume that the study used the current grid and had little to none demand response.
Thanks for the shout out. Unfortunately, energy storage is not my area of expertise within the CPUC and I'm not sure of the best place to find the info you're seeking, though CAISO is always a good place to start.
I can point you to the active cases at the CPUC in which the big utilities are seeking approval for their current energy storage procurement plans.
First, go to the CPUC's docket card at this link.
Then, in the field for "Proceeding Number Search" type one of the following proceeding numbers:
PG&E - A2003002
SDG&E - A2003003
Southern California Edison - A2003004
That will take you to a landing page...click the "Documents" tab and that will give you all of the filings in the case (unfortunately, you won't find the testimony documents here - the utilities house those on their own websites...it takes a bit of digging to find them but the typical starting place will be a "Regulatory" or "Regulations" link on the home page, then keep an eye out for something along the lines of "open proceedings" or "CPUC filings).
If you're a real glutton for punishment, you can put yourself on the proceeding's service list (here) and get new filings in your inbox.
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
Largest battery storage system in U.S. connects to California ISO grid | American Public Power Association
The California Independent System Operator (ISO) connected the largest battery storage resource in the nation to its power grid last month.
The initial phase of LS Power Group’s Gateway Energy Storage Project in San Diego County came online June 9 and added 62.5 megawatts (MW) of storage interconnection to the ISO grid.
Serving about 80% of California and a small portion of Nevada, the CAISO power grid currently has over 216 MW of storage capacity in commercial operation. If all planned projects in the interconnection queue are completed on schedule, storage capacity will jump to 923 MW by the end of 2020. Making it a six-fold increase from 136 MW at the beginning of the year.
Steve Berberich, ISO president and CEO, predicts that as much as 15,000 MW of battery storage of different duration levels and various technologies will be needed to help the state reach its goal of cutting carbon from power grids by 100% by 2045. The ISO expects large increases in its battery storage resources through 2023 based on the state’s procurement targets.
The Gateway project is a lithium-ion battery system that will have a total capacity of 250 MW when it is in full operation. The company plans for it to be fully online in August 2020, when it will reportedly be the largest operating Battery Energy Storage System (BESS) in the world. The initial 62.5 MW of storage already makes it the largest BESS in the nation. Out of a total of more than 170 BESS facilities of 1 MW or more currently operating in the United States, the two second-largest are 40 MW, one each in California and Alaska.
Larger projects are also in the works in the United States, including plans for a system of more than 400 MW in Florida, and another in Nevada expected to be 380 MW.
Additional battery storage is expected to be added to the ISO market in the new few years, most notably 300 MW of a 400-MW project planned by Vistra Energy Corp. at Moss Landing in Monterey Bay, and the remaining 187.5 MW at the Gateway station.
The American Public Power Association recently launched a Public Power Energy Storage Tracker, a resource for association members that summarizes energy storage projects undertaken by members that are currently online.
The initial phase of LS Power Group’s Gateway Energy Storage Project in San Diego County came online June 9 and added 62.5 megawatts (MW) of storage interconnection to the ISO grid.
Serving about 80% of California and a small portion of Nevada, the CAISO power grid currently has over 216 MW of storage capacity in commercial operation. If all planned projects in the interconnection queue are completed on schedule, storage capacity will jump to 923 MW by the end of 2020. Making it a six-fold increase from 136 MW at the beginning of the year.
Steve Berberich, ISO president and CEO, predicts that as much as 15,000 MW of battery storage of different duration levels and various technologies will be needed to help the state reach its goal of cutting carbon from power grids by 100% by 2045. The ISO expects large increases in its battery storage resources through 2023 based on the state’s procurement targets.
The Gateway project is a lithium-ion battery system that will have a total capacity of 250 MW when it is in full operation. The company plans for it to be fully online in August 2020, when it will reportedly be the largest operating Battery Energy Storage System (BESS) in the world. The initial 62.5 MW of storage already makes it the largest BESS in the nation. Out of a total of more than 170 BESS facilities of 1 MW or more currently operating in the United States, the two second-largest are 40 MW, one each in California and Alaska.
Larger projects are also in the works in the United States, including plans for a system of more than 400 MW in Florida, and another in Nevada expected to be 380 MW.
Additional battery storage is expected to be added to the ISO market in the new few years, most notably 300 MW of a 400-MW project planned by Vistra Energy Corp. at Moss Landing in Monterey Bay, and the remaining 187.5 MW at the Gateway station.
The American Public Power Association recently launched a Public Power Energy Storage Tracker, a resource for association members that summarizes energy storage projects undertaken by members that are currently online.
It drives me crazy that some simple facts about this project are so hard to find. Can anyone find more details about the Gateway Energy Storage Project?
I believe that this is at the Otay Mesa Generation Site and I also believe that Tesla may be supplying batteries to LS Power for this project.
What I found interesting, is that PG&E is actually responsible for getting this project going, and not SDG&E. Weird - why?
Maybe @RandyS knows?
@Dave EV
I am not in that part of the company. I heard about the battery a little bit last week from the news feeds I subscribe to. On twitter, there was a series of tweets by CEO Paul Segal that discuss the project a bit....
https://twitter.com/PaulSegal12/status/1283056047293423616
Is it possible they don't want to talk about the location due to security concerns?
I am not in that part of the company. I heard about the battery a little bit last week from the news feeds I subscribe to. On twitter, there was a series of tweets by CEO Paul Segal that discuss the project a bit....
https://twitter.com/PaulSegal12/status/1283056047293423616
Is it possible they don't want to talk about the location due to security concerns?
Because they are being built for system reliability, I believe they can be placed anywhere within the CAISO balancing authority.
This normally makes sense for things like power plants, where multiple utilities could own a stake, and it is electrically connected to only one utility (requiring power to flow out of one, into another, sometimes virtually).
This normally makes sense for things like power plants, where multiple utilities could own a stake, and it is electrically connected to only one utility (requiring power to flow out of one, into another, sometimes virtually).
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