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California supercharging prices = $6.74 per "gallon" - me do math wrong?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by calisnow, Mar 30, 2017.

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  1. calisnow

    calisnow Active Member

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    #1 calisnow, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
    I noticed something tonight. The EPA mpge gallon of gas equivalent is 33.7 kwhr. Tesla's 2017 supercharging price in California is $0.20 / kwhr. That makes a "gallon of gas" $6.74 at Tesla's "pumps." What am I missing here?
     
  2. thimel

    thimel Member

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    You are missing the much higher efficiency of electric vehicles. The model S gets 90-100 mpge. That is much better than any ICE. So the cost of fuel per mile is much less for EV than for ICE.
     
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  3. MarcusMaximus

    MarcusMaximus Member

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    Pretty sure your EPA mpge is wrong. That'd mean well over 100 miles per gallon...
     
  4. rjcbox

    rjcbox Member

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    -You can drive about 3 miles per kwh

    -Each kwh costs ~17-20 cents (supply & delivery), even less if you have off-peak rates

    -Assuming comparison vs. car that gets 30mpg, that'll run you about 10kwh, or $1.70 - 2.00 ("per gallon")
     
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  5. MarcusMaximus

    MarcusMaximus Member

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    Arg, can't edit, but you actually have it right. The difference is that a MS uses that energy much more efficiently, resulting in an equivalent to ~117mpg(based on the 208 mile range of the MS 60)
     
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  6. calisnow

    calisnow Active Member

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    @MarcusMaximus - true, but my point is about the pricing of the energy equivalent. Tesla has a monopoly on "gas stations" - and their California pricing out-the-gate is more than double the price of actual gas - reducing the financial gain of the efficiency to the end user by 50%. mpge is only a useful metric to the paying end user if electric fuel can obtained at equivalent prices as gasoline.
     
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  7. rjcbox

    rjcbox Member

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    It's "per gallon equivalent" (mpge), comparing energy, in an attempt to allow people to wrap their heads around energy-efficient comparisons.

    In an ICE, most of the energy stored in gasoline will be released as heat rather than propulsion.
     
  8. mblakele

    mblakele radial cross member

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    That math doesn't mean much because it's expensive to turn a gallon of gas into kWh: you lose a lot of energy due to inefficiency. And turning kWh into gallons of gas is prohibitively expensive.

    Instead I think it's more useful to compare cost per mile driven. This chart from the INL shows Tesla's kWh price at just about the right point to compete with filling up a hybrid.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. sorka

    sorka Active Member

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    0.20 = 1KWh = 3.33 miles @300 wh / mile = 6 cents per mile.

    My Prius:

    50 MPG @ $2.74 gallon = 5.48 cents per mile. Don't get me wrong. I like driving the Tesla more, but if I had to pay california supercharger rates, it would be more costly than driving my prius even after you factor in oil changes.
     
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  10. tls

    tls Member

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    Count your blessings. The standard rate for charging at parking garages in New York City is $0.45/kWh -- though some places have started to raise it to $0.49/kWh lately. Heavily discounted residential electric rates for multifamily buildings in NYC don't even approach $0.20/kWh. Tesla's $0.19/kWh is a fantastic giveaway -- the New Jersey and Connecticut pricing, which is two-tiered per-minute is so baffling I'm not sure what to think except that, man, it's still cheaper than charging overnight where I live.

    My conclusion is that even at obscene Northeast electric prices (a bunch of states in the middle of the country that pump coal soot into my lungs while they leech my tax dollars can thank me for subsidising their cheap juice, of which this reminds me yet again) Tesla's made driving the Model S cheaper than driving a boring, small hybrid -- and infinitely more fun. Thanks.
     
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  11. rjcbox

    rjcbox Member

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    If the reference is to $0.20/kwh at a Supercharger, that's about the U.S. residential rate, same as you plugging into your garage. The OP miscalculated the cost "per gallon equivalent" at a supercharger.

    Model S costs about 6 cents/mile to run - less than my 4 cylinder Honda when I buy gas at $2/gallon!
     
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  12. Livver77

    Livver77 Member

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    I'm all about a clean environment but to exaggerate that coal plants in the Midwest are pumping soot into anyone's lungs is a little much. These places have been so heavily hit with regulations that there is no soot hitting your lungs. Granted they still cause some pollution but no where to this extreme. They spend millions a yr on scrubbers and other technology to burn very efficient
     
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  13. ucmndd

    ucmndd Member

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    The only useful metric is how much it costs to travel a fixed distance.

    You're calculating an imagined "reduced financial gain" based on an equivalency between gas and electricity that doesn't exist.
     
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  14. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    #14 Ulmo, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
    My 2005 Mercedes E500 (W211 chassis) was a V8 that got about 20mpg depending on where I was going. So, at $3.50/gal, it was about the blue line at $0.16/mile.

    My 60D Tesla Model S (refresh SW limited 75) gives me about 2.58miles/kWh according to some of my average TeslaFi stats, and I can recharge at Chademo for about $0.15/kWh+$15/month, so about $0.19/kWh, but I also charge at night at home for about $0.13/kWh usually, so my costs are around $0.15/kWh overall, or about $0.08/mile. That's about half of my old Mercedes.

    Playing with the numbers:
    • Cut cost of gas in half to $1.75/gallon leaving electricity the same, and they're the same price. That hasn't happened for a while.
    • Raise cost of electricity to $0.20/kWh, and drop price of gas to $2.20/gallon, and they're the same price. This happens at slower Chademo and during times of cheaper gas.
    • Raise cost of electricity higher, and gas cars are cheaper to drive.
    • I get a car that does 30mpg, and that's going to be competitive with my Tesla at current gas and electricity prices. A Honda Civic does 30mpg, nothing special.
    • Raise cost of electricity, drop cost of gas, and get an efficient car? Then the gas car is cheaper.
    • Always charge at home for $0.13/kWh, that's $0.06/mile in the Tesla, and at current prices, the Honda at 30mpg would be about $0.09/mile. But, I would have gotten a used Mercedes S550 instead of the Tesla, so that's realistically closer to 20mpg, so more like $0.14/mile for gas now, or more than double my Tesla. This is the current reality.
    To me, it isn't about price. The fact that they are price competitive is the good part; the better part is that I get to have clean air. But, it would really make it a lot better if it was a price savings in energy. As long as I make certain to always charge at home and the prices are $0.13/kWh, I am actually about half the price of my prior car, and if it weren't for the Tesla, my next car would have been similar price in gas to my prior car. In my case, it does save me money.

    Look at the Bolt EV compared to its ICE peers: similar comparisons.

    But, the comparison does have some lumps. For instance, in long distance travel, I tend to pay more for electricity if I don't hit a large proportion of SuperChargers in my free-for-life car, but in a way, the high price I paid for my car really is a high cost even at "free" SuperChargers, but in a gas car, longer distance is about 25% less expensive, especially in my case since about 60% of the time I know of less expensive gas stations along my long distance routes that are not near to my usual shorter distance commutes. Also, I find myself spending a lot more for electricity in winter than I do in summer for long distance drives, and compared to a gas car is especially bad since gas is more expensive in summer and cheaper in winter. (If I had a gas car I liked to drive as much as my Tesla, I'd probably do the gas car in winter and the Tesla in the summer, but I want to stay away from non-electric forever now.)
     
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  15. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    #15 Ulmo, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
    Coal burning electricity plants put more radioactive uranium, thorium, etc. in the air than there is unrecycled nuclear fuel from nuclear power plants, and that's only one of the many horrible types of pollution coal plants put out. Coal Ash Is More Radioactive Than Nuclear Waste. According to that, it's less than 1% of background radiation, so nearly meaningless.

    "Clean coal" is not as bad as "dirty coal", but still, it is dirty as hell; it's not clean. Honestly, I'm going from older research, and I don't know the latest on this, but I doubt it has converted in the last few years from still dirty as hell to clean.

    I'll go read more about clean coal, but if it is so easy, why is China still having problems? Just their cars?

    Apparently, this is the "first clean coal plant", just turned on this year: America’s first ‘clean coal’ plant is now operational — and another is on the way. So, is Clean Coal just a fake? A lie? It's a measly quarter gigawatt plant. We throw away 20 times more than that much electricity from solar panels in California than that plant even provides! We could just use our existing solar panels and extinguish all the pollution that coal plant is still producing even though it is the first "clean coal" plant.

    Of course, if we're going after that, we should also hire lots of engineers to shoot sun rays into heaters into cement kilns, as well as other cleaner energy for cement kilns during the 3/4's of the day the sun isn't shining (perhaps electrically driven beams that do the same as the sun beams); and replace powered gardening and construction equipment with battery powered equipment, and start to disincentive jet flights for passengers and unnecessary freight. Those three things right there would take away a huge chunk of pollution, too. But, that doesn't mean we should ignore coal electric plants.
     
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  16. Blup85

    Blup85 Member

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    Financialy, EVs don't really make sense unless you make your own energy (unless your electric rates are sub .10c/kw)
    My leveled cost of electricity is .02c/ kw with my solar, but I did it myself.
    I think it's kind of a crock the Tesla still boasts that an ev reduces net cost of ownership due to no gas to new buyers. Thats true only if you factor in another 20k for a solar array.
     
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  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    #17 SageBrush, Mar 30, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
    Tesla is passing through it's electricity costs to the consumer, as it should be.

    In any case, you are confusing yourself with the MPGe nonsense. Calculate cost per mile and compare the Tesla to an equivalent ICE car. And remember that most people have access to cheaper home based energy. I will pay about 2 cents a KWh at home*, for a per mile cost of about 0.4 cents

    *As soon as my PV array is permitted and up and running
     
  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    I paid $5k last month for my array, and it covers my home in addition to our cars. It is paid off in about 3 years in electricity and petrol savings and then it's generation is free for the rest of its lifetime
     
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  19. ucmndd

    ucmndd Member

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    I think those are very broad generalizations.

    With my California electricity costs (no solar) and driving habits, I save at least $100/mo in fuel costs vs. a very efficient ICE (my prior car, a VW Passat TDI that averaged 44 mpg over 80k miles).

    Granted a Tesla costs more than a Passat, and I drive quite a lot, but a Chevy Bolt would cost me $21k after fed, state, and local incentives - $5k less than the Passat. That clearly makes financial sense, solar or not.
     
  20. ucmndd

    ucmndd Member

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    Not to detail the discussion but I'd be interested in hearing the details of that $5k array. DIY?
     

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