California Utilities Plan All Out War On Solar, Please Read And Help

[h2ofun]

Aha! I think the difference of what we are discussing is that you are looking at Powerwalls that charge from the grid. Yes, in that case no ITC (Why would anyone do this, just add solar it is cheap and a 4 to 5 year payback). If you are charging your Powerwalls from solar, you absolutely get the ITC. I received my ITC as did several friends of mine with Powerwalls.

"Powerwall is designed to qualify for the Federal Investment Tax Credit (ITC) when it is installed on an existing or new solar system and is charged 100% with solar energy. Discover more about state, utility and local energy incentives here."

Tesla has enabled a person who has posted in this forum for Arizona to have his powerwalls charged from either the grid or solar.

Tesla does this in all other parts of the world.

Tesla charges from grid in storm watch.

So, its not a technical problem. So the powerwalls were designed for more than ITC.

I guess you do not understand winter solar? with what I have now, I can get 90kwh in the summer. I am lucky if I get 20kwh in the winter, and I use like 50 to 90 kwh per day since I have electric heat. For the folks who say its not an issue, so far, all of then have had gas heat. Apples and oranges

 

[h2ofun]

My solar averages around 58 kwh per day during the peak summer month and less than 7 kwh per day during the minimum winter month. My peak use is in winter of about 70kwh per day. Peak daily use in the summer is less. So how would I be able to cut the cord. The cost of 2 powerwalls would be about $20,000. I don't see any way I can justify this cost based on cost savings.

Yep, the folks who say its a non issue seems to have gas heat. I also use 50 to 90 kwh per day in winter and am lucky to make 20kwh. Having PW's in the winter with only solar charging is a TOTAL waste of money. And worse, since it forces EV2-a cost, at 3x peak, one loses LOTS of money!!!!! Again, with number I am seeing for me, there is NOT ROI any logical person would ever invest in

 

[gene]

Tesla has enabled a person who has posted in this forum for Arizona to have his powerwalls charged from either the grid or solar.

Tesla does this in all other parts of the world.

Tesla charges from grid in storm watch.

So, its not a technical problem. So the powerwalls were designed for more than ITC.

I guess you do not understand winter solar? with what I have now, I can get 90kwh in the summer. I am lucky if I get 20kwh in the winter, and I use like 50 to 90 kwh per day since I have electric heat. For the folks who say its not an issue, so far, all of then have had gas heat. Apples and oranges

Arizona is a different case vs. California's SGIP program. If one is on the SGIP program and has received the very generous SGIP funds, charging from the grid is not allowed.

Wow! You use a lot of electricity up there in Auburn. Here in So Cal, I have 8.8 kw solar with two Powerwalls. No gas here, we are an all electric home with 3 cars to charge. In winter we use 15 kwh per day, but our coastal temps are much lower than yours. November through February we are slightly in deficit. Overall, by the year, we overproduce by about 10%.

But, how about we get back to the initial point of this entire thread. The utilities do not like that citizens can produce their own energy, that distributed energy and micro grids are a threat to the investors. But whose country is this? The investors country or the citizens country? Do you really believe fees for home solar should be $91 per month? How about school fees of $3400/mo? How does this help California meet its climate goals?

Fact sheet: Utilities want to stop California’s solar progress

docs.google.com

 

[SageBrush]

I use like 50 to 90 kwh per day since I have electric heat.

What kind of electric heating ?
What is your thermostat setting ?
How is your home insulation and leakiness ?

I ask these questions because you use a lot more energy for heating than my 2800 square foot home with a crappy envelope, even though your local climate is ~ 17F warmer in the winter.

 

[h2ofun]

What kind of electric heating ?
What is your thermostat setting ?
How is your home insulation and leakiness ?

Big house. High ceilings. Mini splits. That is only if I turn on all 10 heads. 64 degrees. Good insulation. Electric heat in a big home is not trivial.

 

[iPlug]

Big house. High ceilings. Mini splits. That is only if I turn on all 10 heads. 64 degrees. Good insulation. Electric heat in a big home is not trivial.

What are their HSPF ratings?

 

[h2ofun]

What are their HSPF ratings?

Its the Mits mini splits. Use just depends on how cold it gets and stays. When it gets into the 20's at night and not out of the 40's during the day, big house with lots of windows, .... Oh well, propane was not cheap either.

 

[SageBrush]

Its the Mits mini splits. Use just depends on how cold it gets and stays. When it gets into the 20's at night and not out of the 40's during the day, big house with lots of windows, .... Oh well, propane was not cheap either.

Have you asked for a leakage audit ?
Or perhaps it's the Jacuzzi ... ?

I admit, there is part of me that says 'don't blame PV for a poorly designed and built McMansion and (?) energy guzzling lifestyle' but your 15 kW of PV and batteries should be able to cover most if not all of those sins **. This is why I wonder about your loads and home envelope. Have you tried pre-heating your home when the heat pump efficiency is higher ?

** I'm an aetheist

P.s.
Fans solve the high ceiling issues, and a full home energy audit is *highly* recommended. You cannot make choices until you know where your energy is going.

Addendum: My home is 2800 square feet, poorly built, and sits in a climate about 17F cooler than yours in the winter. Presuming 70% of heat reaches the living spaces, we consume 4200 kWh of energy each heating season. A reasonable heat pump should be able to manage a COP of 2.5 - 3.0 in your climate for a seasonal heating consumption of ~ 1500 kWh, adjusted for your 4F higher thermostat setting.

 

[winfield100]

Yep, the folks who say its a non issue seems to have gas heat. I also use 50 to 90 kwh per day in winter and am lucky to make 20kwh. Having PW's in the winter with only solar charging is a TOTAL waste of money. And worse, since it forces EV2-a cost, at 3x peak, one loses LOTS of money!!!!! Again, with number I am seeing for me, there is NOT ROI any logical person would ever invest in

@h2ofun

have you by perchance had a blower door test run on your residence to check for exfiltration and infiltration? (air leaks)
the kids in the Solar Decathlon back in 2009 were able to comfortably heat an 750 sq ft house with essentially a 1,600watt blow dryer as it was so tight and so insulated to the max, in the mid-west in Missouri DOE Solar Decathlon: 2009 Team Missouri
it was insulated to R-40 but only had 8 kw PV system, but they had to truck the house to Washington DC, assemble it on the Mall, then take it back home

 

[rays427]

Yep, the folks who say its a non issue seems to have gas heat. I also use 50 to 90 kwh per day in winter and am lucky to make 20kwh. Having PW's in the winter with only solar charging is a TOTAL waste of money. And worse, since it forces EV2-a cost, at 3x peak, one loses LOTS of money!!!!! Again, with number I am seeing for me, there is NOT ROI any logical person would ever invest in

My 70 Kwh per day in the winter is with propane heating and one electric water heater. I have changed almost all lights to LED. If we convert to electric heating it would be much worse.

 

[iPlug]

My 70 Kwh per day in the winter is with propane heating and one electric water heater. I have changed almost all lights to LED. If we convert to electric heating it would be much worse.

For most homes in the U.S., heating energy use is >>cooling. It's nearly 50% of all home energy consumption:

Use of energy in homes - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

[h2ofun]

For most homes in the U.S., heating energy use is >>cooling. It's nearly 50% of all home energy consumption:

View attachment 649057

Use of energy in homes - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

wow, I knew it was more, but wowo

 

[SageBrush]

Why would anyone do this, just add solar it is cheap and a 4 to 5 year payback

Arbitraging grid TOU rates I presume. Works with or without PV

 

[SageBrush]

were able to comfortably heat an 750 sq ft house with essentially a 1,600watt blow dryer

Operated how many hours of the day, in what temp delta ?

 

[winfield100]

Operated how many hours of the day, in what temp delta ?

well, this was, If I remember the correct house since I went to every Solar Decathlon starting in 2002, 2005, 07, 09, 11, (maybe 13 i think) etc on the Washington DC mall
it was in late sept, early October every year it was held.
This was anecdotal data. a "he said this in general to myself and a few others. (almost 2 weeks of answering questions to large crowds so they got tired)

The houses, ~20 each time were designed to be self contained energy wise with enough electricity to run vehicles, GEM Nev's around the mall.
they specifically said the house was efficient enough to be heated by a 1,600 watt hair dryer

(The Germans from Darmsteadt a few years later sent a cubical shaped house that had 5 of the 6 sides completely covered with PV custom made by grad students, 800 sq ft, yet still only ~19kw of panels
high tech, super efficient all of them
google Solar Decathlon

 

[iPlug]

...were able to comfortably heat an 750 sq ft house with essentially a 1,600watt blow dryer as it was so tight and so insulated to the max, in the mid-west in Missouri DOE Solar Decathlon: 2009 Team Missouri
it was insulated to R-40...

Imagine what they could do with a heat pump.

1,600 W is probably about the max continuous we use in the coldest parts of our (non-Alpine California) winter. ~2,550 ft^2 house, winter temps set 70-71F in day/69F at night, gets as cold as low 20sF for a few hours on the coldest winter pre-dawn mornings. High temps are always above freezing.

 

[winfield100]

Imagine what they could do with a heat pump.

1,600 W is probably about the max continuous we use in the coldest parts of our (non-Alpine California) winter. ~2,550 ft^2 house, winter temps set 70-71F in day/69F at night, gets as cold as low 20sF for a few hours on the coldest winter pre-dawn mornings. High temps are always above freezing.

yeah, went to and participated in Solar Home tours from round 2000 or so. lots of interesting designs over the years

 

[Cheburashka]

Imagine what they could do with a heat pump.

1,600 W is probably about the max continuous we use in the coldest parts of our (non-Alpine California) winter. ~2,550 ft^2 house, winter temps set 70-71F in day/69F at night, gets as cold as low 20sF for a few hours on the coldest winter pre-dawn mornings. High temps are always above freezing.

Could you elaborate on your setup? I live in the same climate with slightly smaller house. Currently on propane but thinking about switching to a heat pump system. I always thought it would use more power than 1600W in the winter.

 

[iPlug]

Could you elaborate on your setup? I live in the same climate with slightly smaller house. Currently on propane but thinking about switching to a heat pump system. I always thought it would use more power than 1600W in the winter.

We replaced our natural gas furnace and 5-ton (oversized original that came with the house) air conditioner that shared the same central ducting with an infinitely variable 4-ton central ducted heat pump. The central ducting remained exactly as it was, just tightened up the seals at the vents.

The heat pump is rated 20.5 SEER for cooling and an industry best at the time (for central ducted) 13.0 HSPF. We set the heat pump to run in 100% heat pump mode (no heat strips). Even in our coldest weather (not so cold compared to national averages), it never needs to run near 100% capacity to maintain a steady temperature. In winter we set the indoor temp to 70-71 ºF in the day and 69 ºF at night.

Although the heat pump can certainly use more than 1600W at a time, that is a very rare thing for us, essentially only for a few minutes to automatically run the defrost cycle a few time each winter. For instance, we only used 3 kWh resistive heat this year so far. During that time, the resistive heat strips come on to heat the home even in "heat pump only" mode, which then uses several times 1600W.

Heat pumps run best maintaining a steady temperature - slowly, quietly and efficiently doing their thing. But if you ask it to suddenly run several degrees below the current temp, it has to run at 100% until it gets to goal temp, and during that time it will draw more than 1600W, but much less than using resistive heat.

If you already have a central ducted system, this might be the way to go. If you do not, installing mini-split wall units might make more sense. The later are also a bit more efficient since they don't have to deal with the air ducting.

 

[Odiemac]

I've sent a few emails off to my government representatives on this proposed NEM 3.0. My main point to them was that these proposed changes would seriously degrade electrification's competitiveness with gas powered things (cars, heating, appliances, etc). If they really want to have an equitable solution to the "problem" of rooftop PV being too cheap and too plentiful, they should charge MUCH higher gas tier pricing to cover the difference. Then high usage homes would have an incentive to electrify and reduce emissions, rather than whacking the most electric homes with large fees and energy bills.

BTW, I have the same heat pump as @iPlug and love it, and of course I bought it because solar energy is cheap and clean compared to gas bills