Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
  • TMC Podcast #11 will stream live Saturday at 1PM PDT. We will be joined by special guest JT Stukes, a former engineer at Tesla. You can watch it live and participate in the chat on YouTube. We will addressing viewer comments and questions. For more information, follow the TMC Podcast #11 thread.

Call to Action: Colorado EV Charging Fees

SageBrush

REJECT Fascism
May 7, 2015
13,271
18,036
New Mexico
Background
Colorado is using its dieselgate funds to build out a DCFC network as part of the Governor's initiative to transition the state to EV ownership. Unfortunately, the typical charging costs at these DCFC are crazy, reaching as much as 95¢ a kWh when the charger is operating at 20 kW. It happens because both volumetric and 'parking' charges are billed, typically at these rates:

20¢ a kWh
25¢ a minute

Today I emailed Matt Mines, the contact I found for the state. I've enclosed my email to him below. I encourage all interested people to email Matt, or any other state official who may be able to shed light on their decisions and help remediate the billing scheme. To me it looks like a billing programming error, but it has been going on far too long.

Matt Mines email: [email protected]

Hello,​
Many (I think the majority) of the DC fast chargers that have been installed in the state using the dieselgate settlement money have charging fees that place them far and away as the most expensive in the nation. Here are the specifics:​
25¢ a minute "parking fee"​
20¢ a kWh​
Some of the chargers operate at 50 kW, some at 20 kW, and a few are rated up to 150 kW although actual delivered rates are lower. These rates result in costs as high as 95¢ a kWh, or about 950% higher than the cost of electricity at home.​
If put it in the context of an equivalent gasoline charge for a 30 mpg vehicle, the cost is as high as $10/gallon.​
I hope it is obvious that these rates are unreasonable; but more importantly, they are sending a strong signal to citizens to NOT buy an EV. Colorado for now has the distinction of it being a better idea to not install anything if the alternative are these monuments of negative messaging.​
What is going on ?​
Why has Colorado allowed such a negative campaign ?​
Signed,​
EDIT:

Additional contacts:

Zachary Owens [email protected]
Addison Phillips [email protected]
Steve McCannon [email protected]

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ha! I actually emailed the Colorado Energy Office this yesterday:

Hello,

Why are the charging corridor stations so expensive on a per minute basis? I think it would be more popular if they were straight $/kWh like Electrify America and Tesla Superchargers, even if it resulted in them being $0.35/kWh instead of $0.20/kWh + $0.25/min. Further, from reports on PlugShare, it seems that some are not even able to deliver their full 125 kW or even 62.5 kW which makes them crazy expensive per kWh. My concern is that it's making them at least as or even more expensive than gas and relegating them to emergency use only instead of being a reliable network for regular travel which does not achieve the objective of promoting EVs over ICE.

These estimates are using a very efficient EV and will be worse on a mi/kWh basis when traveling at interstate highway speeds and with a less than peak optimal EV.

Chargers:
125.0 kWh / 60 min = $0.25/min / 2.08 + $0.20 = $0.32 / kWh / 4 mi/kWh = $0.08/mi
62.5 kWh / 60 min = $0.25/min / 1.04 + $0.20 = $0.44 / kWh / 4 mi/kWh = $0.11/mi
50.0 kWh / 60 min = $0.25/min / 0.83 + $0.20 = $0.50 / kWh / 4 mi/kWh = $0.13/mi
35.0 kWh / 60 min = $0.25/min / 0.58 + $0.20 = $0.63 / kWh / 4 mi/kWh = $0.16/mi
20.0 kWh / 60 min = $0.25/min / 0.33 + $0.20 = $0.95 / kWh / 4 mi/kWh = $0.24/mi

ICE
$3.00/gal / 40.0 MPG = $0.08/mi
$3.00/gal / 35.0 MPG = $0.09/mi
$3.00/gal / 30.0 MPG = $0.10/mi
$3.00/gal / 25.0 MPG = $0.12/mi
$3.00/gal / 20.0 MPG = $0.15/mi
 
Thanks for the efforts! Did you get any reply?

It's strange because some stations installed under CEO grants have very reasonable rates, but a lot of them have the $0.20/kWh + $0.25/min - it seems that this is somehow the default, unless maybe a host wants to kick in extra to lower the rate? Thanks for emphasizing the high cost of this rate - even at "125 kW" stations, I've never even seen reports of over about 80 kW, and most users are charging at 40-50 kW peak rate (including Teslas)...

I did contact Zachary Owens ([email protected]) previously about the CEO Corridors program (he's listed as the program manager for that) and got a nice reply, so he could be another possible point of contact...
 
  • Like
Reactions: SageBrush

PLUS EV

Running on Empty
Sep 16, 2016
7,293
12,404
Seattle
I've still not received a reply from Zach or from [email protected]. That said, I think I found the reasoning for the pricing in this PDF.
Whoever came up with this "ChargePoint best practice" figure is causing a lot of problems.

I recently ran into a ChargePoint L2 charger at a hotel with a similar pricing structure. Previously it had been a $10 flat fee, which, although being more expensive than typical hotel L2 chargers (most are FREE), seemed like a fair enough price. As it was, I paid something like $4 to gain 10 rated miles in a brief test charge (I literally could not believe the pricing structure so I had to try it lol). I later emailed the GM of the hotel explaining how bad a ripoff it was, how it was $7/gallon equivalent when we are used to paying $1-2/gal (or better yet, FREE!), and how an unwitting customer could plug in and go to bed and rack up over a hundred dollars of parking charges, most of which would be after the car was already charged to full, etc. To his credit, he emailed me back saying he changed it back to the $10 flat fee (I have not been back yet to verify).
 
I've still not received a reply from Zach or from [email protected]. That said, I think I found the reasoning for the pricing in this PDF.

They need to distinguish between time-based fees while charging and idle fees (after charging has finished). I'm all for idle fees, but these time-based fees are unreasonable, and they add insult to injury when a station is operating at reduced capacity (which is all too common).
 

SageBrush

REJECT Fascism
May 7, 2015
13,271
18,036
New Mexico
I've still not received a reply from Zach or from [email protected]. That said, I think I found the reasoning for the pricing in this PDF.

Good find !

I think the most egregious error in their price analysis is the presumption that peak charging power and average charging power are the same. Hard to believe that ChargePoint itself would be so clueless although I'm not surprised to read that the CEO would follow along.

As for the Meeker example, the coop charges 11.3¢ per kWh on the residential and commercial rates and not 25¢ as reported in the table. Per https://www.wrea.org/sites/whiteriver/files/downloads/Tariffs/2021/R1-2021.pdf

addendum: Thinking about Chargepoint more, their recommended pricing would include the following:
  1. A price that promotes the idea of profitability
  2. It includes ongoing costs to CP for billing services and maintenance
  3. It presumes the owner paid for the installation and wants to recoup costs over the first few years
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sdoorex

SageBrush

REJECT Fascism
May 7, 2015
13,271
18,036
New Mexico
I don't remember if the CEC grants include money for O+P but if so, then I think we can petition the CEC to recommend that charges be set to cover the volumetric rates, plus an idling charge after 90 minutes of connection so that drivers do not hog the spots for convenience.

If demand charges come into play the cost story is *much* more complicated.
 

mociaf9

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
3,217
6,714
CA
For higher usage DCFC sites with limited numbers of chargers (e.g. locations with only 1 or 2 stations), a time component during charging makes some sense, even if it isn't necessarily the most equitable solution to car owners. The goal being to encourage people not to stay attached to "high power" stations when they could be getting equivalent service from L2 charging. Basically, it's a way to keep people from needlessly hogging a limited resource. And it addresses opportunity costs for the charging station owner/operator if they are doing a lot of low powered charging because cars with limited charging capabilities are using the station a lot and thereby preventing charging from cars with higher charging capability. But at low usage locations or places with lots of extra charging slots, these issues aren't so relevant.
 

SageBrush

REJECT Fascism
May 7, 2015
13,271
18,036
New Mexico
For higher usage DCFC sites with limited numbers of chargers (e.g. locations with only 1 or 2 stations), a time component during charging makes some sense, even if it isn't necessarily the most equitable solution to car owners. The goal being to encourage people not to stay attached to "high power" stations when they could be getting equivalent service from L2 charging. Basically, it's a way to keep people from needlessly hogging a limited resource. And it addresses opportunity costs for the charging station owner/operator if they are doing a lot of low powered charging because cars with limited charging capabilities are using the station a lot and thereby preventing charging from cars with higher charging capability. But at low usage locations or places with lots of extra charging slots, these issues aren't so relevant.

As I wrote above, I think ChargePoint settings allow time charges after a set interval. So busy location or not, they can start charging per minute after e.g. 30 or 60 minutes. Presto -- hogging solved
 
As I wrote above, I think ChargePoint settings allow time charges after a set interval. So busy location or not, they can start charging per minute after e.g. 30 or 60 minutes. Presto -- hogging solved
The Dinosaur ChargePoint is priced that way:

Energy
All Days $0.20/kWh

Station Parking
First 45 mins Free
Thereafter $0.25/min

Edit: Also, the Del Norte charger very recently dropped the parking fee to $0.05/min from $0.25/min.
 
Background
Colorado is using its dieselgate funds to build out a DCFC network as part of the Governor's initiative to transition the state to EV ownership. Unfortunately, the typical charging costs at these DCFC are crazy, reaching as much as 95¢ a kWh when the charger is operating at 20 kW. It happens because both volumetric and 'parking' charges are billed, typically at these rates:

20¢ a kWh
25¢ a minute

Today I emailed Matt Mines, the contact I found for the state. I've enclosed my email to him below. I encourage all interested people to email Matt, or any other state official who may be able to shed light on their decisions and help remediate the billing scheme. To me it looks like a billing programming error, but it has been going on far too long.

Matt Mines email: [email protected]

Hello,​
Many (I think the majority) of the DC fast chargers that have been installed in the state using the dieselgate settlement money have charging fees that place them far and away as the most expensive in the nation. Here are the specifics:​
25¢ a minute "parking fee"​
20¢ a kWh​
Some of the chargers operate at 50 kW, some at 20 kW, and a few are rated up to 150 kW although actual delivered rates are lower. These rates result in costs as high as 95¢ a kWh, or about 950% higher than the cost of electricity at home.​
If put it in the context of an equivalent gasoline charge for a 30 mpg vehicle, the cost is as high as $10/gallon.​
I hope it is obvious that these rates are unreasonable; but more importantly, they are sending a strong signal to citizens to NOT buy an EV. Colorado for now has the distinction of it being a better idea to not install anything if the alternative are these monuments of negative messaging.​
What is going on ?​
Why has Colorado allowed such a negative campaign ?​
Signed,​
EDIT:

Additional contacts:

Zachary Owens [email protected]
Addison Phillips [email protected]
Steve McCannon [email protected]

I'm a soon-to-be Model 3 owner. I'm interested in this topic. Do you have a source for this information? Some place I could read more? Or is this simply from your own experience using these stations?
 

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top