Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

[mdevp]

Where did you see that Consumer Reports did it without roll out? I could not find that information anywhere, but maybe I was not looking the right places.

I'm saying I think that is how it will be perceived by the majority of potential customers in Europe if Tesla comes out and official states that on the P85D they use roll out and not from zero mph when measuring acceleration time 0-60 mph. Especially when they are not using it on the P85, 85D etc. Can you blame them for thinking that? Porsche, Audi, Mercedes and BMW does not use roll out and that is the competition in Europe. I don't know how that is me being bold? That is just zero meaning zero over here and not 4, 5 or 6.

I saw it in another article that Consumer Reports doesn't use rollout with its GPS Vbox, but I can't find the article. I guess I just assumed b/c they are simply measuring the car at start of movement not after the wheel rollout is why the 0-60 is 3.5secs rather than 3.1. And they got 3.5secs multiple times too.

Does anyone know if all measured 0-60s are done with rollout, then will the P85D's "rank" amongst other cars be the same?

 

[darthy001]

http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-and-edmunds-clock-tesla-p85d-0-60-in-3-5-not-3-1-seconds/

Cant remember seeing this one before... But smalltime media is indeed picking up on this now.

 

[rns-e]

I saw it in another article that Consumer Reports doesn't use rollout with its GPS Vbox, but I can't find the article. I guess I just assumed b/c they are simply measuring the car at start of movement not after the wheel rollout is why the 0-60 is 3.5secs rather than 3.1. And they got 3.5secs multiple times too.

Does anyone know if all measured 0-60s are done with rollout, then will the P85D's "rank" amongst other cars be the same?

I think it is fair to assume that Motor Trend does its test the same way for every car and so does Consumer Reports, but the may not do it the same way at Motor Trend and Consumer Reports. So the results will be comparable as long as they are from the same magazine. Cross magazine compatibility may not be valid.

 

[Foolmeonce]

Guys this is really very simple no need to advocate others. Zero, null , 0 really means zero , null , nil , 0

Is its still unclear please read this :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_(number)

so when you present 0-60 times it really mean from zero, null , nill , 0 speed not 3,4 or 5 mph .. Why is this so difficult to understand ?

To Quote an recent article :


On the other hand, the use of rollout with 0-60 times is inappropriate in our view. For one, 0-60-mph acceleration is not a drag-racing convention. More important, it’s called ZERO to 60 mph, not 3 or 4 mph to 60 mph, which is what you get when you apply rollout. While it is tempting to use rollout in order to make 0-60 acceleration look more impressive by 0.3 second, thereby hyping both the car’s performance and the apparent skill of the test driver, we think it’s cheating.


http://www.hybridcars.com/consumer-reports-and-edmunds-clock-tesla-p85d-0-60-in-3-5-not-3-1-seconds/

 

[neroden]

UPDATE FROM THE DANISH TEAM:

Last friday (14th of August), after starting this thread and similar on other forums, we received an email from Tesla management (VP Engineering) and arranged a phone conference, to discuss the subject - Missing performance on P85D's.

During the call, we once again brought the performance issues into attention, asking Tesla to investigate the matter and give an official reply to our letters. After discussing the matter for 30 minuttes, we asked Tesla to test a new vehicle running the latest release (2.5.36 in Europe), and compare this to a february/march build version of the firmware. Tesla agreed to this and promised to return with some information within a "few days" - in my opinion this is 2 days - but I guess we all know Tesla Time is running much slower.

As we hadn't heard anything from Tesla earlier today, we contacted the VP of engineering directly this afternoon, and once again had a plesant call with him. They were still in progess of testing and comparing the firmware versions and the performance given by these different versions, however no final results were ready yet. Doug seems to be very systematic and briefly what they intended to test/were testing. As he stated - Tesla had never intended to downgrade the performance of the P85D, and they were now looking into where this issued occured. When they could identify in which build the problem started, the next step was to identify and rewrite the code controlling the drivetrain, so that the vehicles once again would perform as they did before the unfortunate firmware build. He didn't exactly admit that they had a problem, but it was said in between the lines.

Urk. Oh dear. This sounds like the culprit is bad change control procedure on the software which controls the motors.

Unfortunately, there have been other similar "oopsies" in software updates -- the sort of things which probably wouldn't have happened with more testing. I have no idea how Tesla is operating their programming team, but their QA/testing procedure seems problematic. This is yet another communication-related issue, in the broadest sense.

 

[dsm363]

And the whole open source thing too. Don't forget that.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) Lied About Model S, now Fans Are Revolting

That seems like a harsh adjective to use on us. Or maybe they are making a play on re-"volt"-ing or something. I'm confused, as usual.

 

[Andyw2100]

Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) Lied About Model S, now Fans Are Revolting

That seems like a harsh adjective to use on us. Or maybe they are making a play on re-"volt"-ing or something. I'm confused, as usual.

The headline clearly did not represent the sentiments actually expressed in the letter.

 

[Kristoffer Helle]

Its all fun when we take down the 700HP dodge hellcat! But we still complain...

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Wait...apparently they were using it as a verb.

Nevermind.

:smile:

 

[MuppetOwl]

Its all fun when we take down the 700HP dodge hellcat! But we still complain...

The Hellcat does the 1/4 mile in 10.8 sec so almost 1 sec less and a trap speed that is 22 kph faster, That is a BIG difference. And with drag radials it is also faster to 60 mph. The handicap of a 700hp 2wd car on normal street tires does not have anything to do with power. But off course the Hellcat would need a good driver and perfect conditions and that is the reason I would never buy any powerful car without 4wd.

The fact is that the P85D is 0.1 sec slower on the 1/4 mile time and only 0.1 sec faster to 60mph time compared to the 560hp Audi RS7. And a stock RS7 does dyno 440-450 wheel horsepower.

 

[hpham007]

The Hellcat does the 1/4 mile in 10.8 sec so almost 1 sec less and a trap speed that is 22 kph faster, That is a BIG difference. And with drag radials it is also faster to 60 mph. The handicap of a 700hp 2wd car on normal street tires does not have anything to do with power. But off course the Hellcat would need a good driver and perfect conditions and that is the reason I would never buy any powerful car without 4wd.

The fact is that the P85D is 0.1 sec slower on the 1/4 mile time and only 0.1 sec faster to 60mph time compared to the 560hp Audi RS7. And a stock RS7 does dyno 440-450 wheel horsepower.

Tesla definitely has a 0-30 mph advantage due to its immediate torque but after that, even a 425hp BMW pretty much walks away from it.

BMW M4 Destroys Tesla Model S P85 D

 

[dsm363]

Tesla definitely has a 0-30 mph advantage due to its immediate torque but after that, even a 425hp BMW pretty much walks away from it.

BMW M4 Destroys Tesla Model S P85 D

Looks like they were going about 30mph at the start of the race. I don't doubt the M4 would beat it. No one said the P85D was the perfect track car. It's best performance metric is it's launch times.

 

[sorka]

Looks like they were going about 30mph at the start of the race. I don't doubt the M4 would beat it. No one said the P85D was the perfect track car. It's best performance metric is it's launch times.

But that's not a track scenario. That's a launch from a roll in a straight line just like any freeway passing maneuver. It's not even a specific scenario. The from a dead stop is a specific scenario. Pretty much every other scenario while already moving at ANY speed above 30 MPH. So 50-70 or 70-90 or whatever.

The M4 has a power to weight ratio of 1/8 while the P85D's is 1/9. So of course the M4 is going to beat the P85D from a roll. The RS7 also has a power to weight ratio of 1/8.

If this was tracking(i.e. road course), the P85D would lose lots of power after a few minutes and the difference would be a great deal more than it is in that video.

 

[dsm363]

But that's not a track scenario. That's a launch from a roll in a straight line just like any freeway passing maneuver. It's not even a specific scenario. The from a dead stop is a specific scenario. Pretty much every other scenario while already moving at ANY speed above 30 MPH. So 50-70 or 70-90 or whatever.

The M4 has a power to weight ratio of 1/8 while the P85D's is 1/9. So of course the M4 is going to beat the P85D from a roll. The RS7 also has a power to weight ratio of 1/8.

If this was tracking, the P85D would lose lots of power after a few minutes and the difference would be a great deal more than it is in that video.

It's not exactly like the P85D is a slouch in these areas either. Sure it's not as good as a car with 6-8 gears and similar HP in a lighter car. Not as good as you were hoping I understand but not bad. So ICEs shine in one area and EVs shine in another. No one car is master of all. Does the M4 get a similar ~85mpg when driving sedately? If you compare every metric the P85D will lose some of them.

If you're trying to do a freeway passing maneuver and you happen to be next to an M4 and you both decide to gun it at the exact same moment then yes, you might be out of luck. How often has this happened to you? Most of the time the other person is going a steady spend and you want to jump into a spot.

 

[sorka]

It's not exactly like the P85D is a slouch in these areas either. Sure it's not as good as a car with 6-8 gears and similar HP in a lighter car. Not as good as you were hoping I understand but not bad. So ICEs shine in one area and EVs shine in another. No one car is master of all. Does the M4 get a similar ~85mpg when driving sedately? If you compare every metric the P85D will lose some of them.

If you're trying to do a freeway passing maneuver and you happen to be next to an M4 and you both decide to gun it at the exact same moment then yes, you might be out of luck. How often has this happened to you? Most of the time the other person is going a steady spend and you want to jump into a spot.

Not a slouch? Compared to what? Compared to a car that has a lower power to weight ratio? It's faster. Compared to a car that has a better power to weight ratio? It's slower. It's also slower than it would have been had it actually made the power to weight ratio that was advertised. So it's not a matter of what I hoped. It's just not what was advertised so yes, I was disappointed when the performance at freeway speeds (which I was unable to test during test drive) did not match the advertised power. If it had the advertised power, it would handily dispatch the M4 by about as much as the M4 does to the P85D.

 

[dsm363]

Not a slouch? Compared to what? Compared to a car that has a lower power to weight ratio? It's faster. Compared to a car that has a better power to weight ratio? It's slower. It's also slower than it would have been had it actually made the power to weight ratio that was advertised. So it's not a matter of what I hoped. It's just not what was advertised so yes, I was disappointed when the performance at freeway speeds (which I was unable to test during test drive) did not match the advertised power. If it had the advertised power, it would handily dispatch the M4 by about as much as the M4 does to the P85D.

Compared with 95+% of other cars out there. Certainly better than any car I'd ever owned or driven before. The P85 isn't bad for that matter. Yes, there are cars that are better I understand that.

A motor hp number was advertised. As well as a 0-60 and a 1/4 mile time. It was known the car had two gears as well. This fact alone had to give you some indication about the acceleration at higher mph I would think. If two cars have the same power and one had a two speed transmission and the other has an 8 which will accelerate better at higher speeds? I know you were expecting more power with the number Tesla advertised.

For those like me who don't have a great understanding of all this I found this helpful.
The Relationship Between Horsepower, Torque, and Acceleration

 

[sorka]

Compared with 95+% of other cars out there.

But not better than cars that have a better power to weight ratio.

A motor hp number was advertised.

And this means what? Where did Tesla define term "motor power"? I always assumed it mean power produced at the motors and not say the battery or the wheels (duh!)

As well as a 0-60 and a 1/4 mile time.

A 0-60 time was which I'm satisfied with since I assumed 1 ft rollout although now it appears they did not use this for their other models.

Please show me where they advertised a 1/4 mile time prior to the introduction of Ludicrous? If they had, the front loaded-ness of the 0-60 producing only a 115 MPH ET might have been a red flag for me had I know as much then as I do now. So yes, those facts alone indicated to me that the passing performance on the freeway should have been consistent with a car that has an hp/weight ratio of 1/7, not the 1/9 it actually has.

It was known the car had two gears as well.

Two gears? You've said this multiple times before. Where are you getting two gears? The P85D has a fixed gear and it does pretty darn good with that since it's drivetrain loss is linear at about 10% right up to 100 MPH. I don't have data after that but i don't really care about 100+ MPH freeway passing. At autobahn speeds that a second gear might come into play but given power curve is almost flat up that point I think I'm just fine with 1 gear and I'll bet Tesla is too

If two cars have the same power and one had a two speed transmission and the other has an 8 which will accelerate better at higher speeds?

The job of multi speed transmission with regards to acceleration to is keep the engine as close as possible to the peak of power. The Tesla produces a flat power curve that matches the logged output of the battery so it's able to stay at it's peak all the time at least up to typical freeway passing speeds. This is why it can make so much power at low RPMs i.e. torque and why tesla has such a big advantage when starting off at 0 MPH compared to an ICE as it doesn't need to wait for that first gear to reach peak power before the multi speed transmission can keep it close to that peak.

The P85D is truly traction limited at 0 MPH and 0 RPMs. The only way you can do burn outs with an ICE is to rev the engine to high RPMs and allow the torque converter transfer power via fluid coupling or drop the clutch in the case of a manual relying on even hard to control friction. This is far more difficult to control even with computerized launch control systems which is why the P85D is still able to often beat ICE cars that have quoted faster 0-60 time even if the P85D can't *always* beat those car to 60 because a that ICE's launch just happened to be optimal.....even if noisy and attention drawing.

I know you were expecting more power with the number Tesla advertised.

I think it's fair to say I was expecting *the* power that Tesla advertised although for the S85, P85, and 85D they understated and over delivered so some might have gotten used to expecting that but I don't think we'd have a legitimate beef if the P85D only produced the advertised power. They advertised 691. We got 555 GROSS (not net) before any losses.

There's only a 52 hp (gross difference in power between the 85D and P85D 414KW (555 hp) - 376KW (504 hp)) yet the design studio showed a 376 hp difference. Both used "motor power":

 

[dsm363]

What motor power means is exactly the problem with this whole debate. Tesla wasn't clear.

I thought each motor had its own fixed gear but must be wrong about that.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

And I assumed what some here did... that the HP rating listed on Tesla's order page was the HP that the car actually delivered somewhere, somehow. I would never think a car manufacturer would advertise a hypothetical HP rating that its car never actually produced.