Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

[Hookmaker]

Gentlemen, please stop referring to us as whiners etc., this is hardly the issue. The issue is very simple and VERY measureable:
Elon Musk and Tesla Motors have ADVERTIZED AND MARKETED a vehicle that could finally follow the McLaren F1 from 0-60 mph at it's incredible 3.2 sec. The McLaren number is a FACT over, done and verified AND it is WITHOUT 1 foot roll out. Period. I want this vehicle and I purchased this vehicle ONLY because of this. So did MANY MANY others.
I already owned a Model S - why should I have swapped if it was not for this. I, and a whole group of others have tested and tested (and don't bother me with conditions, we know how to test), and NO one comes even close. Something is not right.
So if you have real numbers to contribute with, either that verifies our numbers OR Teslas claimed numbers, please do us the great favour of contributing, so that we can clear this issue.
Thank you.

 

[MuppetOwl]

Where is the official information about 1-foot rollout is a official 0-60mph standard in the US? Edmunds ++ does not agree and writes that 0-60 with rollout is cheating.

Also anyone have a list of other cars that officially have in the specs 0-60 times with rollout?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Can you find just one US car manufacturer that say that their 0-60 times are with rollout? And at the same time please tell me where I can see this is a agreed standard for car manufacturers, not car magazines

Where is the official information about 1-foot rollout is a official 0-60mph standard in the US? Edmunds ++ does not agree and writes that 0-60 with rollout is cheating.

Also anyone have a list of other cars that officially have in the specs 0-60 times with rollout?

I'm getting deja vu because I'm certain I already answered this same question in the other thread:

No US car manufacturer will explicitly say they are using rollout. They just use it without mentioning at all because it is standard convention in the USA.


For example, 2009 ZR1 was advertised at 0-60 3.4 seconds (just to pick something with similar acceleration):
2009 Corvette ZR1 pricing released: 638 HP For $103,300!


Testing shows this is accomplished with rollout:
"The result is a best 0-60-mph time of 3.8 seconds (3.5 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and a quarter-mile time of 11.5 seconds at 128.3 mph."
2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 vs. 2009 Nissan GT-R Comparison Test

For people asking about rollout, here's some articles about it from all major US car magazines.

The main reason for rollout is to simulate drag strip performance (with drag racing being a long time tradition in the US).

Car and Driver:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-importance-of-rollout

Motor Trend:
"We subtract a one-foot rollout from the launch to simulate dragstrip performance (dragstrip runs started the whole quarter-mile acceleration craze and remain the only practical way for most owners to test their own cars, so we want our numbers to match those acquired in this way)."
http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_0802_motor_trend_testing/viewall.html

Road and Track:
I didn't find an article for Road and Track discussing rollout, but their spec sheet for their P85D clearly lists a 1 foot rollout (scroll to bottom for spec sheet):
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...25888/climate-change-2014-tesla-model-s-p85d/

1 foot rollout was not something Tesla made up.

 

[LetsGoFast]

Can you find just one US car manufacturer that say that their 0-60 times are with rollout? And at the same time please tell me where I can see this is a agreed standard for car manufacturers, not car magazines

I've actually never seen a carmaker post a standard, but I can tell you that the 0-60 times that Ford advertises for the Mustang or that Chevy advertises for the Corvette match the car magazine results, which do have statements explaining the rollout.

 

[rns-e]

I don't want to get into a debate about the accuracy of the claims and distract this thread, but in the other thread I pointed out that the only instrumented test by American car magazine I've found of the F1 got 3.4s with rollout.

I agree, lets save that for the other thread

What I do not understand is, from the country that invented the mandatory disclaimer to almost any product sold, why no US car manufacturer has a disclaimer saying that 0-60 times are with rollout.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I agree, lets save that for the other thread

What I do not understand is, from the country that invented the mandatory disclaimer to almost any product sold, why no US car manufacturer has a disclaimer saying that 0-60 times are with rollout.

If you understand how big the drag racing culture is in the USA, you would understand. It's the same reason why 1/4 mile is such an important metric in the US, but not in other countries.

The only legal place where most US car drivers would test acceleration claims would be at a drag strip. There are far fewer people going to other tracks, and it's illegal to do so on public roads (outside of perhaps vbox on a highway on ramp; but vbox is a relatively new thing).

 

[LetsGoFast]

If you understand how big the drag racing culture is in the USA, you would understand. It's the same reason why 1/4 mile is such an important metric in the US, but not in other countries.

I agree with this. Also, most regular people focus on the ET in the 1/4, whereas enthusiasts usually are more interested in the trap speed. Its probably more odd that we use "how many draft horses is this equivalent to?" as a standard, tbh.

I'm guessing you guys never seriously considered buying an American performance car before. Those of us who have a history of buying European and American performance cars are very keenly aware of the different methods used in the two places.

 

[mdevp]

Could someone quickly explain why the VBox reads 3.1secs? Does it also do a 1ft rollout as well? I understand what the OP is saying, I just couldn't understand this one thing. A little slow on the uptake I guess.

 

[darthy001]

I'm guessing you guys never seriously considered buying an American performance car before. Those of us who have a history of buying European and American performance cars are very keenly aware of the different methods used in the two places.

Correct, I've never considered buying an American car before. Had no clue about the rollout-concept either

Personally I think the US-buyers mostly knew about this and thus have gotten what they paid for(initially at least), but that does not help the fact that Tesla did and still does falsely advertise this without a disclaimer in other regions like europe.

I dont get why Norwegians and Danish are even debating the US-standards etc... It doesnt matter as those standards are nowhere to be found in europe. Waste of time as the argument is valid for us in our countries no matter what standards are used in the US. Tesla has dedicated webpages for our countries and that is what counts. Same webpages are still showing numbers with rollout without any disclaimer... That is bad form if you ask me

 

[MuppetOwl]

Could someone quickly explain why the VBox reads 3.1secs? Does it also do a 1ft rollout as well? I understand what the OP is saying, I just couldn't understand this one thing. A little slow on the uptake I guess.

Yes on the vbox and gtech you can choose to show the time with or without rollout.

 

[gavine]

Did you forget to put it in Insane Mode during your tests?...ha ha.

 

[Six]

Just for guests and others reading this thread. Many owners, including myself, are very happy with their P85Ds. I would not sign a letter of complaint. In my opinion the people complaining on this thread are whining about "first world problems" and I believe they are wasting this forums and Teslas time on a non-issue.

However, I do recognize they do not agree with this so they should write their letter and can complain of course, but it should not be assumed because they are loud and repetitive that it is the only opinion.

 

[mdevp]

Yes on the vbox and gtech you can choose to show the time with or without rollout.

In that case I find it very odd that there aren't more 0-60 VBox times without rollout on Youtube. Just a couple vids showing with/without rollout times would demonstrate the OP's point and probably get many views. More importantly it'll probably get picked up by internet media since it has to do with Tesla's misrepresentation of the P85D.

 

[lolachampcar]

OOOPS.... someone may have a point. I sense the crap getting closer to the fan.

That is with rollout and not valid because of that. In Europe and rest of the world 0-60 mph or 0-100 kph is not done with rollout-

Example Tesla Model S P85D Insane vs Sport Mode 0-60 MPH Testing | DragTimes.com Drag Racing, Fast Cars, Muscle Cars Blog

If you look at the time its 3.17 but look on the graph that does not show with rollout the time is 3.4-3.5 sec.

View attachment 90550

 

[sorka]

If you understand how big the drag racing culture is in the USA, you would understand. It's the same reason why 1/4 mile is such an important metric in the US, but not in other countries.

The only legal place where most US car drivers would test acceleration claims would be at a drag strip. There are far fewer people going to other tracks, and it's illegal to do so on public roads (outside of perhaps vbox on a highway on ramp; but vbox is a relatively new thing).

Hmm, I do it every day even once in front of a CHP looking for HOV violators on the on ramp to 237. Light turns green. I punch it and accelerate up to 65 as fast as I can from 0. No tire noises. No car noises. The CHP probably would never notice. I would NEVER do that in a Hellcat, but the real question is, is it really illegal.

I'm happy with the 0-60 performance myself. I never caught Elon's McLaren's comment. I bought when the performance was advertised as 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. I easily get that and now even a little better. That's with the 1 ft rollout. Here in the US that's standard.

Some folks in the northern European part of world are claiming that they're barely getting 0-62 in 4 seconds without the 1 ft rollout.

Just to make sure we're on the same page and that our cars here in the US are performing the same as cars in Norway and Denmark, and example vbox run showing all typical acceleration metrics:

0-60 MPH (1-Ft)

3.159 Seconds

0-60 MPH

3.516 Seconds

0-100 KPH (1-Ft)

3.369 Seconds

0-100 KPH

3.727 Seconds

This is the *same* run but the difference between the MPH, KPH and 1ft vs not is pretty large. 3.159 to 3.727. If the folks in Norway and Denmark are seeing 3.7 second 0-100 KPH runs without 1 ft rollout, then we know our cars are performing similarly.

This was with about an 85% SOC and 19" wheels.

On top of that, the MS is far more consistent in it's ability to perform the same every time or most times. I can't tell you how many times I've had cars in the past that were supposed to be able to accelerate to 60 in some amount of time and I could never achieve it after many many attempts. I could never get within 1/2 second of my Corvette's specified 0-60 time. Most cars have to have professional race car drivers on a sticky track under perfect conditions to get the manufacturer claimed times here. Maybe that's not the way it is in Europe.

I think this is why we don't see anyone complaining about that here. HP on the other hand is a totally different issue and has sparked many thousands of messages in both forums.

 

[rns-e]

Just for guests and others reading this thread. Many owners, including myself, are very happy with their P85Ds. I would not sign a letter of complaint. In my opinion the people complaining on this thread are whining about "first world problems" and I believe they are wasting this forums and Teslas time on a non-issue.

However, I do recognize they do not agree with this so they should write their letter and can complain of course, but it should not be assumed because they are loud and repetitive that it is the only opinion.

We never said that we are unhappy with our cars. We are simply saying that the cars do not perform as claimed by Tesla when it comes to HP and acceleration. The only whining I hear is people saying that we should not hold Tesla to their words - and that is fine. We just have different understandings about the value of ones word.

Luckily you have the option to open you own thread and stop reading this - I could suggest the title: 'I love my Tesla' or 'I love my P85D' and list why you love it. I would gladly read it and contribute with all the things I love about the car.

 

[darthy001]

Hmm, I do it every day even once in front of a CHP looking for HOV violators on the on ramp to 237. Light turns green. I punch it and accelerate up to 65 as fast as I can from 0. No tire noises. No car noises. The CHP probably would never notice. I would NEVER do that in a Hellcat, but the real question is, is it really illegal.

I'm happy with the 0-60 performance myself. I never caught Elon's McLaren's comment. I bought when the performance was advertised as 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. I easily get that and now even a little better. That's with the 1 ft rollout. Here in the US that's standard.

Some folks in the northern European part of world are claiming that they're barely getting 0-62 in 4 seconds without the 1 ft rollout.

Just to make sure we're on the same page and that our cars here in the US are performing the same as cars in Norway and Denmark, and example vbox run showing all typical acceleration metrics:

0-60 MPH (1-Ft)

3.159 Seconds

0-60 MPH

3.516 Seconds

0-100 KPH (1-Ft)

3.369 Seconds

0-100 KPH

3.727 Seconds

This is the *same* run but the difference between the MPH, KPH and 1ft vs not is pretty large. 3.159 to 3.727. If the folks in Norway and Denmark are seeing 3.7 second 0-100 KPH runs without 1 ft rollout, then we know our cars are performing similarly.

This was with about an 85% SOC and 19" wheels.

On top of that, the MS is far more consistent in it's ability to perform the same every time or most times. I can't tell you how many times I've had cars in the past that were supposed to be able to accelerate to 60 in some amount of time and I could never achieve it after many many attempts. I could never get within 1/2 second of my Corvette's specified 0-60 time. Most cars have to have professional race car drivers on a sticky track under perfect conditions to get the manufacturer claimed times here. Maybe that's not the way it is in Europe.

I think this is why we don't see anyone complaining about that here. HP on the other hand is a totally different issue and has sparked many thousands of messages in both forums.

Hmmm, those 0-100kph numbers are really disappointing to read.. This leads me to believe that even with a ludicrous-update my car wouldnt be able to reach the 0-100kph time it was sold as having originally

I honestly didnt think it was that big of a difference.... But it is inline with the danish test-results of course allthoug in the lower end..

 

[MuppetOwl]

sorka
Have you tried with slip start activated? If yes any difference?

 

[sorka]

sorka
Have you tried with slip start activated? If yes any difference?

I haven't.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Manufacturers do their own testing, and under their own conditions. They come up with their own "manufacturer specs."

There is no guarantee that customers will be able to duplicate those results.

I have drag raced for years. Each track has it's own personalities, and timing systems. Results vary not only from track to track but from day to day.

Sometimes they prep their tracks with sticky solutions all the way down the track, sometimes only 60' and sometimes nothing at all.

Often one side of the track will produce quicker results that the other.

When staging at the lights, the driver can choose to deep or shallow stage, or anywhere between. This will give either a rolling start or a shorter track. Driver gets to decide.

There is a significant difference between real track testing, and using an inside the car electronic measuring device. They will rarely be precisely the same.

Tesla offers test drive for all potential customers. If this is such an important issue to you, simply waiting until a tester became available and taking along your testing equipment, one could easily do a maximum acceleration run, and determine if the performance was up to your expectations.

Having some problems with the passive aggressive tone of these complaints.