Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

[dsm363]

I was already said 100 times, but guess it has to be said again:

It's not about what performance they promised, its about 691 HP they promised. There is a group of people who want what they paid for, it's that plain simple.

It has to be about the performance they were promised. A hp number is just a number. It implies a certain performance for a car of a certain weight. 300hp in a 6,000lb truck implies a very different performance profile than a 2,000lb sports car. Again, specifically what 60+ mph performance metric were they promised by Tesla that was written down somewhere? We knew the 0-60 time (yes with 1 ft rollout which some were not aware of) and I believe the 1/4 mile time as well which should have been enough information to indicate the car wasn't as strong a performer as some had hoped.

 

[NigelM]

I'm sure you tech guys have considered this but I'll just throw it out there.....

60 mph doesn't equal 100kph. 60mph=96.56kph or look at it the other way around 100kph=62.14mph. There are fractions of a second involved but with two identical Model S side-by-side one will reach 60mph before the other one reaches 100kph every time.

 

[dsm363]

Again, if it actually had 691 hp or 1 hp for every 7 lbs, it would accelerate like a car that has 1 hp for every 7 lbs and not like one that has 1 hp for every 9 lbs. It's the performance you *would* get if it had the hp that was advertised. You were baiting and I took it....again.

Yeah. You got me.
Did Tesla advertise 691hp at the wheels? No. Their number was misleading, no one disputes that. I'm looking for something Tesla said that indicates "60-100mph in X seconds" which is the performance range people are upset about.

 

[MuppetOwl]

I'm sure you tech guys have considered this but I'll just throw it out there.....

60 mph doesn't equal 100kph. 60mph=95.56kph or look at it the other way around 100kph=62.15mph. There's fractions of a second involved but with two identical Model S side-by-side one will reach 60mph before the other one reaches 100kph every time.

Everyone here I think know that We dont use mph so we use Tesla's 0-100 kph time of 3.3 sec and not the 3.1 sec for 60 mph.

 

[darthy001]

I'm sure you tech guys have considered this but I'll just throw it out there.....

60 mph doesn't equal 100kph. 60mph=95.56kph or look at it the other way around 100kph=62.14mph. There are fractions of a second involved but with two identical Model S side-by-side one will reach 60mph before the other one reaches 100kph every time.

I think most people are aware of that. Tesla does indeed market the car with different times based on this as well.

Just that the 0-100kph times is way of it seems. In the examples here we are +0.4s or more of from the marketed numbers.. That leads me to believe the ludicrous-update's promised 0.3s improvement will only make the P85D almost as quick as the originla marketing numbers from october 2014. Or still 0.1s slower then current marketing numbers... Thats after a 5000USD hardware upgrade

 

[917Stark]

barometric pressure
tyre temperature
grade/incline/camber of road, even fractions of degrees
road surface material type and friction coefficient
whats inside the car and what does it weigh?
what does the driver weigh? Be honest
service condition of all moving parts
ride height etc
...

so many things can impact performance in the range of variation you're complaining about. so qualify all these variables before you decide if you still have something to complain about

 

[lolachampcar]

Given that our European friends are having this heartburn, by chance has anyone lined a PD up next to an XYZ with a 3.3 (European) second 0-100 kph time and see how the two compare? If it is anything like anyone that has pulled up beside me, results are predictable and acceptable.

Oh, wait; I believe I have seen a few MP4-12C using launch control versus PD videos running the 1/4 mile (in addition to seeing it in person). The PD performed nicely.

That said, I really can not argue with the whole 1 foot no 1 foot thing. The times speak for themselves.

V10 Audi
Tesla Model S P85D vs Audi R8 5.2 V10 1/4 Mile Drag Racing Launch Control - YouTube

McLaren 650S 2.9 0-60 ??? or 3.0 0-100 kph
Tesla Model S P85D Insane Mode vs McLaren 650S Spider Drag Racing - YouTube

That F12 motors on by for a 3 second car
New Tesla Model S P85D vs Ferrari F12 1 4 Mile Drag Racing - YouTube

Yep, its a dog

 

[Jhall118]

The rollout thing bothers me, because the P85 0-60 was clearly labeled without rollout, and the P85D was not. It's interesting that none of this was a discussion with the P85, at least that I ever saw. Everyone was happy with the advertised HP and speed. What's changed with the P85D other than how it's being advertised?

Can we not even expect the same manufacturer to be consistent when talking about these things?

That being said, I'm not going to demand Tesla do something impossible... I think they are trying to do it right, by offering Ludicrous mode to us for half price. At the same time, for them to increase the HP of Ludicrous, is clearly... well... Ludicrous, and a step in the wrong direction IMO. I could get behind something like that. I am not going to try and hurt a company who is trying to look at the big picture though.

 

[lolachampcar]

The biggest thing that I can see that has pissed people off is that Tesla took the capability of each motor (HP of each) and said the car had XYZ front and ABC rear. Add those two together and they WAY exceed the ability of the battery to source current. Does the PD have under 700 combined motor horsepower? Yes. Can it deliver anywhere near that in operation? Absolutely NO.

It's been posted before but the capability is something like-
1300 amps X 380 vdc or 494 KW
494 KW * 1HP/750 W yields 658 hp
There is real time current draw and battery voltage data out there but I am too lazy to go get it. You get the point.
Also, Tesla does not allow for this kind of current draw for long which really limits available power.

Apply the above to a 1500 amp ludicrous draw and you get 760 hp capability with 100% efficiency.

 

[sorka]

The rollout thing bothers me, because the P85 0-60 was clearly labeled without rollout, and the P85D was not. It's interesting that none of this was a discussion with the P85, at least that I ever saw. Everyone was happy with the advertised HP and speed. What's changed with the P85D other than how it's being advertised?

I had a P85+ loaner for a week. I was only able to get 4.3 seconds with a 1 ft rollout. More than a second slower than the PD. It was clearly traction limited. When I turned off traction control it would spin the tires in the blink of an eye. Maybe it was tires.

What evidence do you have that Tesla's P85 0-60 spec was not with the 1 ft rollout?

 

[tezzla]

Although I agree we don't have 691HP, my take is this: 0-60 in 3.2 is just a basis for comparison, much like the EPA ratings. I don't expect to get either in real life.

 

[sorka]

The biggest thing that I can see that has pissed people off is that Tesla took the capability of each motor (HP of each) and said the car had XYZ front and ABC rear. Add those two together and they WAY exceed the ability of the battery to source current. Does the PD have under 700 combined motor horsepower? Yes. Can it deliver anywhere near that in operation? Absolutely NO.

It's been posted before but the capability is something like-
1300 amps X 380 vdc or 494 KW
494 KW * 1HP/750 W yields 658 hp
There is real time current draw and battery voltage data out there but I am too lazy to go get it. You get the point.
Also, Tesla does not allow for this kind of current draw for long which really limits available power.

Apply the above to a 1500 amp ludicrous draw and you get 760 hp capability with 100% efficiency.

Highest recorded KW draw so far is 415KW. You can only run a traditional melting fuse at 80%. The new e-fuse won't have that limitation.

 

[InsaneDriver]

I have a hard time believing anyone bought a P85D because of the exact HP number, maybe but highly doubtful. I didn't buy any of my Z06's because of any advertised HP rating, bought them because of their total performance value. Also, experience over the years shows that depending upon the day the Dyno tested rwhp numbers will be all over the place. I had a 2003 Z06 with a TTIX twin turbo, rwhp anywhere from 900 - 1000 rwhp, pretty big range! It's a number, it's a variable number too based on conditions.

At the end of the day, i love my P85D, it is Insanely quick, quicker than anything else I've ever owned or driven. I've also never even been inclined to put it on a dyno, no need; i crush every car I come up against. who cares what the number is, I am faster than nearly everything, insane fast and before too much longer i plan on being ludicrously fast.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I respect that. But I didn't buy my P85D because of the HP numbers, I bought it because it performs better than cars 2x, 3x, 4x more expensive and it doesn't use a drop of gasoline. Its a great car regardless if the HP number is x, Y or Z.

 

[LetsGoFast]

Given that our European friends are having this heartburn, by chance has anyone lined a PD up next to an XYZ with a 3.3 (European) second 0-100 kph time and see how the two compare? If it is anything like anyone that has pulled up beside me, results are predictable and acceptable.

Oh, wait; I believe I have seen a few MP4-12C using launch control versus PD videos running the 1/4 mile (in addition to seeing it in person). The PD performed nicely.

That said, I really can not argue with the whole 1 foot no 1 foot thing. The times speak for themselves.

V10 Audi
Tesla Model S P85D vs Audi R8 5.2 V10 1/4 Mile Drag Racing Launch Control - YouTube

Interestingly, Audi quotes a 0-60 of 3.3 seconds for the R8 V10 and Motor Trend tested it at 3.2, so Audi appears to have included rollout in their 0-60 number as well.

 

[Hookmaker]

The rollout thing bothers me, because the P85 0-60 was clearly labeled without rollout, and the P85D was not. It's interesting that none of this was a discussion with the P85, at least that I ever saw. Everyone was happy with the advertised HP and speed. What's changed with the P85D other than how it's being advertised?

Can we not even expect the same manufacturer to be consistent when talking about these things?

That being said, I'm not going to demand Tesla do something impossible... I think they are trying to do it right, by offering Ludicrous mode to us for half price. At the same time, for them to increase the HP of Ludicrous, is clearly... well... Ludicrous, and a step in the wrong direction IMO. I could get behind something like that. I am not going to try and hurt a company who is trying to look at the big picture though.

Some good points. Don't get me wrong I love my P85D and i love Tesla Motors for what they have achieved. I have so far spent 240.000 USD in support in purchasing two of their fantastic automobiles. But I am not going to sell out on my principles in support of false or squeaky marketing stunts to speed up a fast market penetration no matter what the greater cause. Again, I don't care about HP boasting - you can never measure or agree on it anyway, but I will grip to the neck of it when you try and market a product as being comparable or even surpassing another product, on specs that are easily measurable. Tesla Motors have done exactly that. They have sold the P85D as exactly matching an iconic product (the F1) in 0-60 mph accelleration time and this is as I see it simply un-true. And they are off by far (by standards of the racing community).

Had Tesla Motors advertized the P85D with the same specs but without the boasting comparison to a high and mighty benchmark (shot in the foot IMHO), there would have been no case. Would I still have bought the P85D?, Yes probably. Would I have been able to live with the actual 3.7 something as compared to 3.3 after suddenly remembering the 1 foot roll out thing US vs. Europe?, Sure (after some swearing and cursing probably).
In addition I would probably also still enthusiastically read all the TMC threads about performance issues without participating, as I am not a motor/tech freak and also because I don't need to try and patronize or hammer some other TMS owner who might have a frustration about his vehicle (although I might just put up with a curios smile once in a while).

 

[Torben_E]

@Hookmaker.... obviously i agree with you (we met the other day and discussed it in length)...

and i like to add :

1. I am perfectly happy that a car (European, Japanese, Korean or American) in the US market is promoted with performance numbers 0-60 mph. Because miles are used over there. I am also perfectly happy and accept that the industry norm or de facto standard is with 1-foot rollout so the 3,2 s performance can be achieved (based on those definitions).

2. I would also have had a better understanding if for the European market where we use km/h and the benchmark speed is 100 km/h (62 mph) and dont have a 1-foot rollout convention the performance number had been 3,7 s. That would had made a lot of sense to me and to other consumers in Europe. Or the 3,4 s could had been used but then with an bold asterisk * 1-foot rollout.

If I had ordered the car from a US webpage (of course not possible) I would (have to) accept that it would not have been under the European "rules". But I ordered the car in Denmark and here it is under the Danish "rules". I propose that the marketing people should take this into account.


What is equally problematic is that even today the cars on the Danish (and European) web page are being promoted with 0-100 km/h 3,3 s.


Remember "Perception is Reality" in the eyes of a customer and especially the consumers and education and correct promotion of products is a question of manageging expectation. Based on the above my expectations has not been met and my reality is a car that performs 0.4 worse that I have paid for.

Having said that and what we put into the "Calling P85D owner" and have put into the letters to Tesla "
"We are all satisfied with our incredible vehicles in almost every aspect and we are full of admiration for Tesla Motors. We regard ourselves as true ambassadors for Tesla Motors and the Model S and enjoy the attention and discussion that we have with like-minded and "not so like-minded" people that we meet along the way.

Nonetheless we are disappointed that Tesla Motors has clearly not been able to deliver to us what was (and still is) promised and marketed with regards to the Model S P85D."


Best regards

Torben_E

 

[Hybris]

Assume Continentals and square setup with 245 vs PS2 with 265 would be 0.1-0.2s to 100 kph? The cars after April without sport suspnsion? Should not matter or?

my car is insanely fast and win versus motorcycles at the red light. how many vbox runs to 100 kph do we have and what config donthe cars have?

 

[Matias]

@Hookmaker.... obviously i agree with you (we met the other day and discussed it in length)...

and i like to add :

1. I am perfectly happy that a car (European, Japanese, Korean or American) in the US market is promoted with performance numbers 0-60 mph. Because miles are used over there. I am also perfectly happy and accept that the industry norm or de facto standard is with 1-foot rollout so the 3,2 s performance can be achieved (based on those definitions).

2. I would also have had a better understanding if for the European market where we use km/h and the benchmark speed is 100 km/h (62 mph) and dont have a 1-foot rollout convention the performance number had been 3,7 s. That would had made a lot of sense to me and to other consumers in Europe. Or the 3,4 s could had been used but then with an bold asterisk * 1-foot rollout.

If I had ordered the car from a US webpage (of course not possible) I would (have to) accept that it would not have been under the European "rules". But I ordered the car in Denmark and here it is under the Danish "rules". I propose that the marketing people should take this into account.


What is equally problematic is that even today the cars on the Danish (and European) web page are being promoted with 0-100 km/h 3,3 s.


Remember "Perception is Reality" in the eyes of a customer and especially the consumers and education and correct promotion of products is a question of manageging expectation. Based on the above my expectations has not been met and my reality is a car that performs 0.4 worse that I have paid for.

Having said that and what we put into the "Calling P85D owner" and have put into the letters to Tesla "
"We are all satisfied with our incredible vehicles in almost every aspect and we are full of admiration for Tesla Motors. We regard ourselves as true ambassadors for Tesla Motors and the Model S and enjoy the attention and discussion that we have with like-minded and "not so like-minded" people that we meet along the way.

Nonetheless we are disappointed that Tesla Motors has clearly not been able to deliver to us what was (and still is) promised and marketed with regards to the Model S P85D."


Best regards

Torben_E

You have sent two letters and got no response from Tesla. Do you think this third letter will make any difference?

 

[Hookmaker]

Matias, - if there's going to be third letter - so far we ask fellow P85D owners to submit more information to us. We strongly believe that Tesla Motors, being a sensible company, will eventually get in touch with us, otherwise why would we bother?

 

[Matias]

I hope you get response, but I believe, you won't get it. That is because any response would only make Tesla's situation worse. If they admit that you didn't get what was advertised, it will be used against Tesla. If they claim you got what was advertised, it will be used against Tesla.

Of course perfect resolution would be, that Tesla would offer you free Ludicrous update (and I think they should), but I don't think that it is going to happen.