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Camera based Driver monitoring

arghx7

Member
Aug 6, 2019
511
516
Michigan
LOL. Fox News/CNN get just a million or so viewers a day (out of 100 million+ US adults). How widely is CR really circulated / read ?

CR itself? Probably not many. But did you not see all the headlines, "Consumer Reports ranks Tesla last in driver assistance systems" or whatever? They have an axe to grind for sure.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
9,738
28,561
Seattle, WA
CR itself? Probably not many. But did you not see all the headlines, "Consumer Reports ranks Tesla last in driver assistance systems" or whatever? They have an axe to grind for sure.
I did - but did they really influence consumer behavior ? Why do you think Tesla is allowing a handful of beta testers to post on youtube ...

Social media trumps traditional media (esp. of the niche variety).

I think the issue is more around regulators than customers. They might ask Tesla to implement something around driver monitoring. But even they will have to grandfather S&X.
 

KArnold

Member
May 21, 2017
603
556
Columbus OH
My camera will remain firmly taped over, thanks. Tesla already knows enough about what's happening with the car and where it goes, I don't need them to be looking inside it too.
I was wondering if this creeped anyone out besides me. We already have enough Big Brothers watching us. Not sure FSD is worth that to me. That's a huge step in the wrong direction on just about every front, except technological.
 

EVNow

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2009
9,738
28,561
Seattle, WA
I was wondering if this creeped anyone out besides me. We already have enough Big Brothers watching us. Not sure FSD is worth that to me. That's a huge step in the wrong direction on just about every front, except technological.
Companies should clearly state their policies in terms of what they do with the camera data. It should be to process locally and give warnings. It shouldn't be recorded or transmitted. Regular independent audit should be done to make sure this is strictly adhered to.

(ps : moreover car is kind of an open public area. I'd be more worried about what Google and Amazon are doing with my data.)
 
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john5520

Member
Mar 3, 2020
962
685
Florida
Not doing a camera based driver attention system only makes sense if you believe Tesla really is super close to achieving driverless FSD. Do you really believe that Tesla is super close to driverless FSD where driver attention is not needed?

I don't believe that Tesla is super close to driverless FSD. So I think it makes sense to spend resources on adding a camera based driver monitoring system for several reasons:

1) It would allow hands-free immediately while we wait for driverless FSD.

2) It could also be used to add safety for people who don't have FSD.

3) It would allow Tesla to release FSD sooner, with driver supervision, and have a more reliable way of making sure the driver is monitoring FSD.

Agreed. Great progress is being made, but monitoring will have to be mandatory until the system is safe enough. That should be fairly obvious to anyone following the progress of autonomy in general. It's an absolute necessity. Personally, I'd love the camera as an alternative to the wheel nag and for the added level if safety.
 
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Cheburashka

Active Member
Jan 29, 2018
2,448
3,056
Los Gatos, CA
You don’t think people will cheat a camera? I guess you didn’t see the pics of glasses with eyes on them posted in another thread. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who love to cheat things like this.

I was also curious about this but for another reason.

There are plenty of other cars that have driver monitoring. It's not a new or unique problem. Those cars use IR cameras to see through sunglasses. M3/MY do not have that camera.
 

FloridaJohn

Member
Apr 1, 2016
366
444
Palm Beach Gardens, FL
I would assume you could tell if someone is paying attention even without seeing the eyes. Things such as head orientation, body position, hand location would tell you if they are actively engaged, even if eyeball position is not available.
 
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hellchris

Member
Sep 1, 2020
62
36
Ventura, CA
I would assume you could tell if someone is paying attention even without seeing the eyes. Things such as head orientation, body position, hand location would tell you if they are actively engaged, even if eyeball position is not available.

This is how OpenPilot works and it works very, very well. I honestly miss it. I find I was MORE engaged with the camera driver monitoring than I am now with AutoPilot. OpenPilot's DM is actually measuring your attentiveness. Currently the wheel nag is used as an approximation, but wheel torque doesn't really correlate to attentiveness. It is all too easy to rest your hand on the wheel and let your attention be diverted elsewhere.
 
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DDotJ

Member
Feb 28, 2013
755
1,234
California
In the AP/FSD Dev settings UI, there is a toggle for Selfie Driver Monitoring. Looks like it is an option in developer mode, so maybe it will be enabled for production firmware soon.

iFncUBg.png
 

diplomat33

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2017
8,192
9,762
Terre Haute, IN USA
Small edit, I suggest striking the red text...

I guess you are not aware of the several fatal crashes that have occurred on AP because the nag system did not detect that the driver was not paying attention.

The direct cause of the crash was AP made a bad mistake. The driver was not paying attention and therefore no able to intervene to possibly avoid the crash. In turn, the system did not know that the driver was not paying attention and therefore never tried to warn the driver to pay attention. The whole point of a driver monitoring system is to warn the driver when they are not paying attention so that they are able to intervene and hopefully prevent a crash when the system makes a driving mistake. If the driver monitoring system had been doing its job properly, the driver would have been been paying attention and therefore would have been in a better position to prevent the crash. So the nag system not detecting the driver's attention did indirectly play a role in the crash.
 

Microterf

Member
Sep 18, 2020
307
476
Ohio
Just like SAE levels 3-5 = nothing more than who is responsible, I feel like driver monitoring is all about personal responsibility vs human behavior.

Elon, being more libertarian in nature is more apt to make the limitations known and then have the person decide to pay attention or not compared to other companies.

That's why I think the camera monitoring is not by choice, but maybe a requirement before they can roll out fsd fleet wide
 

hellchris

Member
Sep 1, 2020
62
36
Ventura, CA
working perfectly fine

That's a hard claim to make if you haven't sampled the competition. If you think AP's current driver monitoring is "perfectly fine" (implying no room for improvement) then you clearly haven't seen what others are doing in this space. You should really give OpenPilot a try.
 

john5520

Member
Mar 3, 2020
962
685
Florida
Not sure if anyone has seen this yet:



Shows what the cabin camera can detect. It's apparently being used to monitor the FSD beta drivers.

Here's another video. Skip to 4:30:



Very interesting!!

Ahh! Just noticed helvio's post #13 in this thread that had some of this info. Still cool to see it in action.
 
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