Camera Replacing Radar [when will tesla vision be activated on cars with radar?]

[astrobill]

<citation required>

Nothing in the previous posts made the claim you insist "legions" of people made.

In fact- zero people in the thread made that claim.

Several folks said such a transition would come in the future

And guess what? They were right. As you're now forced to admit.

Odd you'd bump a nearly year old thread just to make up a fake argument nobody made, and prove yourself wrong yet again.

Literally LOLing here.

There are three other threads on here with fan bois INSISTING to me a year ago so-called Tesla Vision de-activated radar (which it never did). Even "FSD" cars with Tesla Vision were still polling radar for AEB and FCW, at least when FSD was disengaged, and possibly even when it is turned on. They were just using camera-based measurement for more things in "Tesla Vision".

The misunderstanding among the fan boi crowd that Tesla Vision "de-activated" radar in radar-equipped vehicles were being repeated in almost every thread about radar removal at the time.

And by the way, even in this new 2022.20.9 release note, it says "certain" features will now use Tesla Vision..it doesn't say all features, and it doesn't even say it won't use radar at all if one's vehicle has radar.

That release note could very well mean they'll use camera-only distance keeping during normal Autopilot adaptive cruise control but *still* use it for AEB and FCW in radar-equipped vehicles.

So the guys who were screaming rAdAr iS bEiNg tOtAlLy dEaCtIvAtEd may still be wrong. We'll find out soon.

By the way, on another note, someone on here just pointed out to me it's not at all clear this will even apply to all vehicles...to quote him:

"...This is still not clear what's going on. the sighting is from a refresh model S. Those cars were made without radar since early 2022, so could just be one of those cars..."

So it may apply to even FEWER vehicles that I first assumed, making the "They'll eventually deactivate all the radars" crowd still wrong.

 

[Knightshade]

Literally LOLing here.

At how often your posts are factually wrong? That IS pretty funny....

What's really funny about this is the legions of Tesla fan bois in this any many other threads on this site who were claiming all cars had transitioned to "Tesla Vision" as soon as it was included in Tesla's firmware, and that radar had been de-activated in those vehicles that had them.

Then when asked for any evidence at all in this thread of your claim--- you laugh and admit there isn't any.


Instead you move the goalposts over here-

There are three other threads on here with fan bois INSISTING to me a year ago so-called Tesla Vision de-activated radar (which it never did)

Mind you- you provide no links to THOSE threads either.

It's extra weird if there's these "other" threads where people said it that you'd post in THIS one about it instead of posting this in one of these "other" threads.

Especially given this one had otherwise been dead for almost a year.

So it may apply to even FEWER vehicles that I first assumed, making the "They'll eventually deactivate all the radars" crowd still wrong.

I guess we can add "eventually" to the increasingly long list of things you don't understand.

 

[KenC]

That was the very definition of a strawman argument, along with the use of the pejorative "fanboi" to describe those "legions" whom he imagined disagreed with him.

 

[astrobill]

Except it doesn't, because there's a massive amount of data radar, especially automotive grade radar, can not supply.

Redundancy means it can stand in for another component. Radar can not stand in for vision. They do different things in fundamentally different ways.

Radar was making the system worse

Again all this is explained, with real world data showing why radar was removed, in the AI video you keep refusing to watch.

Here's Elon mentioning it again earlier today-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1447588987317547014

You're re-posting assertions and claims by Musk that are unsubstantiated by data. Every other manufacturer (except maybe Hyundai or somebody) has done years of testing and determined that multi-sensor fusion is needed and that cameras-only cannot provide the performance and safety under all conditions that they seek.

You keep telling people to watch the Tesla propaganda "AI day" video. Watching Tesla showcase their internal research efforts and make claims without any data or independent review is not an objective way to answer these questions. The fact that you don't seem to understand that "AI Day" was a *promotional* exercise and not an independent assessment of their technology is really disturbing, honestly.

The claim that radar was "making the system worse" is unsubstantiated. It may be that Tesla was doing multi-sensor fusion poorly compared to other manufacturers, but that's on them, not on radar.

Moreover, you're refuting your own claims when you say the sensors "...do things in fundamentally different ways...". Yes, that's the point. You need different types of sensors and inputs that work in different ways in order for the system as a whole to work well under different real-world circumstances.

Radar directly measures range (distance). Camera-based distance measurement attempts to *estimate* distances from features and across frames in cameras, and is prone to all kinds of error sources that radar distance measurements don't suffer from. And before you try to explain to me how these sensors work, understand that I'm a physicist who works for a major aerospace company that literally does multi-sensor fusion as our business. I know the differences among radar, LIDAR/LADAR, and cameras and why one uses different combinations of these under different circumstances.

In cars, specifically, it's been shown that vision-only systems perform much more poorly at night in the presence of pedestrians and bicycles, as just one situationally-dependent example. There are others.

Here's one of many studies you can go read, I won't go do an entire literature search for you, but this is a good start: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749379718320932

Moreover, radar HAS NOT BEEN DEACTIVATED in Teslas that have them, even with "Tesla Vision"...it's still used by Tesla's software loops for automatic emergency braking (AEB) and forward collision warning (FCW)...why do you think that is, if radar doesn't add value? Weird, huh?

In fact, there's some evidence this is true even in so-called "FSD" vehicles *when* FSD is activated. They're still checking radar when it's available. LOL.

In addition, with the change to "Tesla Vision" in some Model S vehicles running 2022.20.9, the "1" setting in the cruise control distance keeping has been removed. If "vision only" is better, why did they eliminate that setting? The answer is because they no longer have direct radar range measurements and don't want to let people follow that closely anymore because "cameras only" has some limitations. It's a tacit acknowledgment on Tesla's part that "vision only" doesn't work as well for that application without direct radar range measurements.

In addition, Tesla just registered a new, high-resolution radar in an operational physical package with the FCC. Why do you think that is? Below are a few source links, which includes the following Elon Musk quote:

"A very high resolution radar would be better than pure vision, but such a radar does not exist. I mean vision with high res radar would be better than pure vision." - Elon Musk

Except, Elon, very high res radars *do* exist, and that's the one Tesla just registered with the FCC a few months ago with an automative-grade, vibration resistant case that appears ready for production use...LOL.

The fact is that Elon had Tesla remove radars -- and forego LIDAR -- to keep costs down and, later, deal with pandemic supply chain issues.

He's also trying to get around having to make his team improve their multi-sensor fusion knowledge. It's unfortunate, because they were sort of doing just fine with radar/cameras early on, and were slowly eliminating things like phantom braking, and other issues with how they did multi-sensor fusion.

The whole Tesla game of using "neural net" training and camera-only automation is an attempt to force the inferior cameras-only method of automation to work. It will not work as well as multi-sensor systems, and Tesla will eventually put the new radar they registered in their vehicles...possibly sooner than you think.

Tesla files to use a new radar and everyone is confused

Tesla has filed to use a new radar in its electric vehicles, and everyone is confused since Elon Musk has...

electrek.co

Tesla Registers New High-Res Radar Unit With FCC - CleanTechnica

Tesla registered a new high-resolution radar unit with the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Is radar coming back?

cleantechnica.com

 

[_Redshift_]

The fact that high beams are required for the ADAS to function at night is a showstopper for me.

 

[Knightshade]

You're re-posting assertions and claims by Musk that are unsubstantiated by data.

So after you just got called out for lying about making claims that nobody in the thread made, rather than own up to being caught, you're ignoring that and instead replying to other posts nearly a year old and lying about those too.

I dunno who's paying you to troll here, but they're not getting their moneys worth.

Every other manufacturer (except maybe Hyundai or somebody) has done years of testing and determined that multi-sensor fusion is needed and that cameras-only cannot provide the performance and safety under all conditions that they seek.

Since none have working L5 systems nobody has "determined" anything- they're guessing.

And even then you're lying.... Subaru went vision only before Tesla did

You keep telling people to watch the Tesla propaganda "AI day" video. Watching Tesla showcase their internal research efforts and make claims without any data

The fact you keep claiming "without any data" proves you still haven't watched it, even years later-- yet keep lying about what you imagine it contains.

or independent review

Except there's been plenty of that too.

Folks like Green and others have shown independent data on how the cameras performed vs radar.

Likewise at this point NHTSA, IIHS, and others have all tested the vision only systems and found them extremely safe giving them their highest ratings.

It's not that you keep lying about everything, it's they're embarrassingly bad lies.

And before you try to explain to me how these sensors work, understand that I'm a physicist who works for a major aerospace company that literally does multi-sensor fusion as our business.

WHOA! IT SUDDENLY MAKES SENSE!

I found Dan O'Dowd TMC account!