Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Can a Model-S Charge from a backup battery directly?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
There are already solutions on the market, eg:

http://www.andromedapower.com/ORCA_Inceptive.php

CHAdeMO based, so could probably be used to charge a Tesla via the adapter, but probably not Tesla as the 'tanker' vehicle.

Seems like the Model S would make for an awesome 'tanker' vehicle. Enough power to charge many Leafs (Leaves?). I have a feeling the charging circuitry will freak out and open contactors if you started pulling juice though.

- - - Updated - - -


I used a 2kW little inverter generator on the Model S just to mess around... at 3-4 MPH charge rate it isn't really a practical solution to... well to anything.
 

Actually, the little 1KW gen, with its included fuel, works out to STILL be slightly LESS energy dense than the main pack. Meaning, if you put one in the Frunk, with the associated cables, the car would still LOSE GROUND as compared to just having 15 to 16 more kilos of main battery pack. :) Add the generator, cables, and a gas can, and you can come out ahead by way of the math... of course, it then takes ?5? or more hours to put any usable capacity in the car with that configuration.

Better try a different generator. :)
 
I tried to charge off an older design (and inexpensive) ~4kw generator and couldn't get anything from the 220 or 110 circuits. We're pretty sure the floating ground was the problem.

Edit: I think its this one.

Ah yeah, you have to bond ground and neutral at the generator (and technically drive a ground rod there.... but it will function unsafely without one) for the UMC to work from a generator.
 
There is a good chance DC can be fed directly into the built in chargers. A lot of AC to DC chargers can handle a DC input. Your battery pack could have a Tesla whip on it. When plugged in it could tell the car what amp charge the batteries could supply. It would conceivably give around 1 mile a min of charge if the vehicle has dual chargers. So your 380v DC booster could give 5 miles of range in about 5 min. Tesla's check of the input voltage may need to be modified.
 
There is a good chance DC can be fed directly into the built in chargers. A lot of AC to DC chargers can handle a DC input. Your battery pack could have a Tesla whip on it. When plugged in it could tell the car what amp charge the batteries could supply. It would conceivably give around 1 mile a min of charge if the vehicle has dual chargers. So your 380v DC booster could give 5 miles of range in about 5 min. Tesla's check of the input voltage may need to be modified.

The label on the charger themselves (which I've seen in person) says 85 - 265V @ 45 - 65Hz @ 1 - 40A. DC would be 0 Hz, so... I doubt the charger in the car can regulate a DC input.

Might be fun to try it however if I had an extra charger from a Model S laying around. However I think the layout of the components inside are specifically designed for AC input.
 
Actually, the little 1KW gen, with its included fuel, works out to STILL be slightly LESS energy dense than the main pack. Meaning, if you put one in the Frunk, with the associated cables, the car would still LOSE GROUND as compared to just having 15 to 16 more kilos of main battery pack. :) Add the generator, cables, and a gas can, and you can come out ahead by way of the math... of course, it then takes ?5? or more hours to put any usable capacity in the car with that configuration.

Better try a different generator. :)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Petrol's energy density is 44.4MJ/kg = 12 kwh/kg. That generator's weight tank full of petrol is 13kg. So energy density is 0,92 kWh/kg. If we assume efficiency from tank to generator output to be 0.3 (is this reasonable?), overall efficiency would be 0,28 kWh/kg.


Teslas battery pack has 85 kWhs and weights 595 kg source http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-weight/ so energy density is 0,14 kWh/kg.

According to this generator's effective energy density would be double compared to Tesla's battery pack?

edit: apparently generators efficiency from tank to generator output is approximately 0.2. So generator's energy density is 0.18 kWh/kg.
 
Last edited:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Petrol's energy density is 44.4MJ/kg = 12 kwh/kg. That generator's weight tank full of petrol is 13kg. So energy density is 0,92 kWh/kg. If we assume efficiency from tank to generator output to be 0.3 (is this reasonable?), overall efficiency would be 0,28 kWh/kg.


Teslas battery pack has 85 kWhs and weights 595 kg source http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-weight/ so energy density is 0,14 kWh/kg.

According to this generator's effective energy density would be double compared to Tesla's battery pack?

edit: apparently generators efficiency from tank to generator output is approximately 0.2. So generator's energy density is 0.18 kWh/kg.


I will be the first to say that the generator is very close to parity with adding weight to the main pack... so close that the theoretical energy densities and inefficiencies are not accurate don't really answer the "Is there a benefit to carrying a H1000 in the Frunk?". Let's do the math by the published specs of the generator, and miles:

Honda 1000 weight, dry: 13.15 kG. Fuel capacity: 2.2 Liters. Weight of fuel: 1.6 kG. Total weight: 14.8 Kilos. But you can't carry the generator alone, you'd have to carry a UMC or similar as well. I don't know exactly how much a UMC weighs, lets just say 1.2 kilo (it's really much more than that... but this gives a round number and is more than fair). That would give us 16 Kilo weight of stuff in the frunk to be able to add range to the car when we get stuck.

Honda 1000 power output: 900 Watts, 7.5 Amps for 3.8 hours. Note that "Honda 1000" is only a name. This is NOT a 1kW generator. It can only provides 900W continuous. No knock on Honda, I have a 3000iS and absolutely love it. Any/all of these generators don't really put out the power that their marketing name would suggest.

Extrapolating from Teslas charts about charging from various outlets, we can figure that 7.5 Amps at 120V is going to put in 1.875 MPH (and this is being generous). 1.875 MPH for 3.8 hours = 7.1 Miles of range.

So... 7.1 miles of range from 16 kilos+ in the Frunk. What would 16 more kilos in the main pack give? If look at the various models:

85 (265/595) * 16 = 7.1 Break Even
85D (270/595) * 16 = 7.3 Generator loses.
P85D (253/595) * 16 = 6.8 Generator Wins!


Again, these are VERY close. But... given that it takes just under FOUR HOURS to add this range to the car... well the original question was about putting something in the Frunk for emergencies. My statement was that adding weight to the main traction pack would be better. Because there is not anything out there at the moment significantly more energy dense than the traction pack. In fact, in my challenge, I defined the word "Significantly" to mean "over 20%". The Honda 1K does not meet that 20%. Not even close.

Are there generators that would? Yes, the Honda 2K probably would. About 24Kilos with fuel, plus a couple for the UMC, puts out 13.3A for 4 hours, thus adding about 14 miles to the car. Using the 85D example from above (270/595) * 26 = 11.8. Generator wins! By 18.6%! Close enough to 20%, none of this math is all that precise, I'll declare that one a winner! This is all just fun anyway. :)
 
Are there generators that would? Yes, the Honda 2K probably would. About 24Kilos with fuel, plus a couple for the UMC, puts out 13.3A for 4 hours, thus adding about 14 miles to the car. Using the 85D example from above (270/595) * 26 = 11.8. Generator wins! By 18.6%! Close enough to 20%, none of this math is all that precise, I'll declare that one a winner! This is all just fun anyway. :)

I would still choose to ad weight to main pack if that would be possible choise. But at the moment it is not.