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Can it replace my Jag XF Suprtcharged? the numbers do not add up......

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by jdesmo, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. jdesmo

    jdesmo Member

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    I'm fascinated with the S85Performance version. I'm in Long Island, currently loving my (second) XF supercharged which in my mind probably inspired the design of the S in many ways....
    What would/could deter me from going with the S for my next car?
    1) Range: I travel to NJ at least twice a month down the GS Parkway, approx. 110mi each way. Sometimes I return the same evening, otherwise I stay overnight if I need to stay 2 days.
    I travel over the GW Bridge twice a month, down Rt 80 west approx 35 miles. total 80 mi. each way.
    Neither of these routes have superchargers.
    Other than that, my commute is 50 mi. round trip. Total yearly 15,000 mi.
    2)Lease: From checking around, I get the impression there are no leases on these cars. I need to go with a lease for business purposes, and I like to get into a new car before
    warranty expires.
    3) Maintenance: I'm shocked the S needs as much scheduled maintenance compared to other luxury sport sedan like my Jag. In addition, in case of my current 2011 Jag, all maintenance is included (absolutely everything except tires). Even with my previous XF, I actually had to pay for 1 oil change in 3 years. (15,000 mi. oil change schedule, first oil change free). Brake pads were still good after 3 years.
    4) TC: The S is $30K+ more than my car out the door. I average 15.5 MPG - (gotta enjoy all those ECU upgraded 540 horses as much as I can). The electric utility cost here is $0.20/KWH. Doing the math, the S will save $2800/year in gas . So, even after 4 years I'm very far from braking even
    5) Hurricane Sandy left us without power for 11 days!!. At least I could wait in line for 1-2 hours and get gas . The S would be useless.

    What to do?
     
  2. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    This doesn't appear to be any problem, especially if you stay two days and charge overnight. The Model S can charge from many sources.


    No problem with range here either.


    The warranty expires in eight years in a Model S, assuming you've got the addition warranty. There are supposed to be leases later in the year.

    Based on the Roadster owners' experience they do a lot more during the service than a typical dealer.


    I'm not really sure why electric cars have to break even. I'll bet no one asked if you broke even with your Jag compared to whatever you drove previously.

    Depends on whether you have backup power to your home or not. As this kind of thing is likely to become more common it's a good idea whether you have an electric car or not.

    Basically, the choice is yours, but I don't see anything stopping you other than waiting a bit until they announce the lease terms.
     
  3. joshuaeven

    joshuaeven Member

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    You have answered your question. The Model S is not for you. It's not because of the performance or the range. Those factors will satisfy you. If the fact that a full-sized all electric super-sedan that is designed and built in California and has the potential to help revolutionize our auto industry and infrastructure DOESN'T make up for the factors that you perceive as shortcomings, then you don't get it.
    The no-lease is a deal breaker? Ok. You don't have to ask what to do.
     
  4. eelton

    eelton Member

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    I would say keep the Jaguar, or get another ICE car. That 220 mile round trip will generally require charging along the way. It's possible to do, of course, but you have to be motivated, and I tend to think doing that twice a month would get old. As far as I know, there are no leases of Model S's, so as you point out, that's a problem for you. And I think it's difficult to make a purely economic argument for a Tesla at this point, as the costs of purchase and ownership are high, even considering the energy cost savings. So, if you need it to make sense from a money standpoint, it probably won't.
     
  5. mcornwell

    mcornwell Active Member

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    If the car is sitting idle for more than a few hours on that 220 mile round trip journey, you can easily put back 40 or more miles by using a common 30A charging station, thus making the trip very easy to do.

    Look on PlugShare to see if there are any public charging stations at your destination.
     
  6. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Welcome.

    1) you would likely need someplace to charge in NJ if you planed to return the same day but if you stay overnight it wouldn't be a problem. If you had at least 4 hours on a 30A charger you'd add enough of a buffer to make it home. If you're able to install a 80A HPWC where you visit then there is no issue.

    2) Tesla plans to offer leases later this year I believe

    3) You are still paying for maintenance when it is included it is just included in the cost of the car. It is a brand new car so I imagine Tesla wants to keep a close eye on it to catch any problems that arise earlier than later. It is $1,900 for 4 years if you prepay for Tesla.

    4) Don't forget the $7,500 federal tax credit. After 4 years and ~$12,000 in fuel savings
    Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors
    the difference is about $12,000 (I added back cost of Tesla maintenance)

    5) That is a rare event but something to consider. Some people had to wait a lot more than 2 hours for gas but remember, gas stations can't pump gas without power too. Was there power at work during the storm or was that out as well? Hopefully after a storm, you can find somewhere at least to charge even if power is out at your home.

    Good luck.
     
  7. Jason S

    Jason S Model S Sig Perf (P85)

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    I'll take a stab at this. Your Jag XF is 2 years old so I think you'll still be on lease for a little while. Things change. You'll have better info in a year. Your 2011 supercharged Jag XF is a little bit slower than the Model S Perf, but roughly equivalent to the Model S Reg.
    1) 220 miles is near the limit of the 265 EPA range. You'll likely want to charge somewhere for that trip. But you won't need to charge for long. Have a nice dinner somewhere.
    2) Lease options later this year. No details available right now.
    3) OOoh, 2011 Jag. ... revising earlier comments... This is basically down to the lease agreements, I think. These things get averaged out.
    4) Compare the supercharged Jag to the standard Model S. Or compare the XFR to the Perf and still consider the Perf a slight upgrade. Basically I wouldn't look at any of these as a savings -- get a Prius if savings is part of the metric! :wink:
    5) If you had someplace to go, I'm guessing there is electricity there. Otherwise... where ya driving and why? People with Roadsters were quite well off with the power outage -- they had no lines but their power was still available in easy range.
     
  8. DrJohnM

    DrJohnM Member

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    According to Yahoo autos, the five year cost of a Jag XF is $102,417 based on 20k miles a year. That is for the basic XF Supercharged. However, that car has a 0-60mph of 4.9 seconds, so slower than the S85P. So if you want to do a better comparison, then the Jag XFR-S with the same 0-60 @$99,000 and the total cost of ownership for that will be more like $130k for 5 years.

    From your list of + points for the Jag, it seems that you had your mind already made up.

    I sold my XKR in September. After a while, it just became a money pit. Unfortunately a longer wait in Europe for the S.
     
  9. Thumper

    Thumper Member

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    MS might not be the car for you. That doesn't make you a bad person. You choose.
     
  10. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    If your trepidation has come from reading the Broder or Consumer reports articles I'd have to say that you should give the S a closer look. Neither writer actually managed to charge the car up all the way, neither mentioned turning on "Range Mode", both left the car unplugged overnight, ignoring the most basic recommendation from the manual. Prewarming the car on shore power after charging set to "Max Range" (charging it up all the way) and putting the car in "Range Mode" to moderate the climate control draw really seem to make a big difference. On long trips, slowing down will make a big difference! Most of the time you will be able to drive the car like you stole it and have a blast without hardly looking at the remaining range. Take it for a test drive or two or four. find out if you can fall in love with it, I suspect you will. If you fall in love, it's not hard to make the few adjustments you need to get the most out of the range on the occasion you really need it. I am not an expensive car aficionado, the S was a big step up for me but I have taken many gear heads for a drive in it. Just based on performance and ride, pretty much across the board it's left people gushing. I personally think this car is being sold short lately on it's range. maxing out the range takes some skill and that takes time to acquire.
     
  11. v12 to 12v

    v12 to 12v Active Member

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    The Model S trumped the Jag for me in the end. No regrets at all.
    I'm a former Jaguar owner too. But, its ultimately all personal preference.
    I did I get tired of going to the gas stations. I love going out the door my charge topped off every day. It feels liberating.
    I love the accelleration at the higher speeds.
     
  12. jdesmo

    jdesmo Member

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    I said it's comparable, but for the details of it: according to C&D, test my car has a 0-60mph of 4.3 seconds, so not slower than the S85P. In addition, mine has the ECU upgrade which brought it up to XFR-S tune, certainly it's a sleeper beast now with 540HP.
    That's neither here nor there, I will have to drive the S, and probably will be mighty impressed dynamically. The other points still valid, and both my XF's have proven to be impressive, and at least as reliable/durable as my previous Infiniti Q45, M45, G35x I had previously since 1991

    - - - Updated - - -

    Broder is a baffoon. NYT is called New York Crimes where I come from.
    I'm very much willing to learn new tricks, and play the efficiency game. We shall see - I have another year+ on my lease, but am already impressed by the S potential to convert me.
     
  13. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #13 dsm363, Feb 17, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    Definitely drive it, it is a fun car.

    If Car and Driver does the 1 foot rollout like the other magazines do then the P85 gets 3.9 seconds (Tesla says 4.4 seconds from true zero mph) but that's spitting hairs.
    It's really the instant torque and the ease of driving in traffic combined with never going to a gas station that makes the Model S shine.
     
  14. ModelS8794

    ModelS8794 Member

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    Jdesmo, they are both beautiful cars, totally different experience in each but both sleek, powerful, and luxurious. I remember reading some test drives of MSP reporting 0-60 in 3.9, surely someone will corroborate or not.

    You will likely need to simply drive both to experience for yourself and see which has a vibe you prefer. I'd recommend taking a friend's MSP for a run rather than a test drive at the store, that way you van open it up a bit more and really feel what it can do.

    At this cost, it's not at all about payback periods or comparing fueling costs, IMO. You certainly wouldn't be making those calculations comparing MPG of your Jag to a Panamera Turbo etc. No reason to make those calculations for the MSP either. Take each out, see what feels right, and make your decision on the total package.

    I thiught it was the reverse, FWIW. No idea though, they are both beautiful. How's the Jag held up so far?
     
  15. derekt75

    derekt75 Member

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    I wouldn't buy the car if you have to drive it slower than you want to ensure you can get to your destination. That being said, 110 miles each way is close to enough to get you there and back depending on how fast you drive. Close enough that even a 120V outlet for 8 hours is likely enough. 240V /30A is certainly enough. It might be worth seeing if your destination could accommodate you with a charging station.

    11 days without power seems unlikely to be a common occurrence, and as someone else mentioned, gas pumps require power. Moreover, your car will likely have 240 miles of range remaining when the power goes out while your gasoline car can have anything from 20 to 300 miles of range (depending on when you last filled it). I read that most EV drivers were better off after Sandy as they didn't need to worry about buying gas, and they had plenty of range stored to do whatever they needed to do for days.

    The bottom line, though is to drive the car. If you don't like it more than the Jaguar, get the Jag.
     
  16. DavidM

    DavidM P2624, Delivered

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    Simple. It can only replace your Jag if you want it to. We all had to make a similar decision. In my case, Model S replaced a Lexus Roadster and a Lexus sedan. I'm not looking back, and after 2 months, I have no regrets.
     
  17. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    Your a car guy else you would not even know about ECU tuning. The answer is simple. Find someone locally and spend some time in the car. It will change the way you think. You will then have no problem finding a charge point at your destination so you can keep your foot into it during your commutes and will also have no problem finding someone to underwrite the lease.

    Really, just go drive it for a few hours and forget trying to cost justify the MS. The mental gymnastics are not worth it. Your gut will know exactly what to do:)
     
  18. KenEE

    KenEE P1937 Reward Excellence!

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    The reason to buy anything over a focus or corolla is the enjoyment it gives.

    No car will give you the feeling of the Model S Performance when you leave all the Jag's, BMW's, etc. sitting on the line. And you can do it as much as you like for a buck or two a day of electricty.

    What to do?

    Test drive a Model S Performance.
     
  19. jdesmo

    jdesmo Member

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    The XF first came out in 2009, so design is older than MS. For me - Both my XFs proved to be all the things Jaguar are supposed to be very good at, + (surprising some people but not me) excellent reliability, sweet drive train and engine, very good highway millage if you drive efficiently, very low costs for scheduled maintenance during the 3-4 lease periods, great dealer service 5 miles from home with loaner cars. The supercharged is mighty impressive indeed. Also I like the fact that are very few on the road still, as people perception is still not positive sometimes+ the herd mentality of most Americans. This is even better when it's time to negotiate the next lease......Some little things besides the performance: The HVAC system is by far the best I experienced, ( heated steering wheel a must from now on), rear window electric shade which is great in the summer, the great audio, still getting many complements on the car both out and interior, leather and wood everywhere, very good value for $$ compared to other such cars.
    Few problems with squeaks from sun roof, door seals and headliner with the first XF I had. All fixed permanently by dealer. No issues with my current S/C with 20,000 mi. The other big +++ of the S/C for me was the ability to re-program the ECU software to power levels of the XFR-S (540-560HP) for under $2000 and without voiding warranty or any effect on drive ability/MPG. That trully transformed the car (still for under $70,000 total!!!)
     
  20. Al Sherman

    Al Sherman It's about THIS car.

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    ^^^This.


    ^^^And this.

    Drive the car and report back please. The Model S sells itself.
     

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