Can More be Done For the Kids?

[SSonnentag]

I never said you think all technology is bad, but for some reason you've singled out this one bit of technology as being a bad idea. It makes no sense whatsoever. Why this one piece of tech and not another? There is no end to things that we can over-rely on, but that is no reason to not have and use them. Nobody is calling you evil, stupid, dumb or a monster, just inconsistent and confused. I am NOT in favor of lawsuits and there are far too many of them. I would personally never sue due to a malfunctioning child notification warning. I would never sue due to spilling hot coffee on myself either. It's just a part of the times in which we live.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I never said you think all technology is bad, but for some reason you've singled out this one bit of technology as being a bad idea. It makes no sense whatsoever. Why this one piece of tech and not another? There is no end to things that we can over-rely on, but that is no reason to not have and use them. Nobody is calling you evil, stupid, dumb or a monster, just inconsistent and confused. I am NOT in favor of lawsuits and there are far too many of them. I would personally never sue due to a malfunctioning child notification warning. I would never sue due to spilling hot coffee on myself either. It's just a part of the times in which we live.

Because the title of the post isn't about AEB, or AutoPilot, or Backup Cameras?


I'm trying to stay on topic.

 

[Gloor]

If you want to talk about this, fine. AEB is a tech that helps you react faster. As a human your perception + reaction is way slower than a machine even if you are paying 100% attention. AEB is designed (or should be) for cases where something you can't predict or react fast enough will help you prevent.
I for one hope that AEB will never even be used in my car as I am a safe driver, keep the right distance and adjust accordingly due to weather etc. but because some people drive like assholes and you can't never control those situations I hope that the split second, that the car reacts faster than its humanly possible, will prevent some damage to the car or an accident.
AEB is not there to be inattentive - its just meant to be extension to you as the reaction from those sensor will superseed any human on the planet.
The feature you guys are talking about is not about extension of reaction or something like that. Its basically to safe your ass when negligent. And here lies the problem. When you give humans tools to be 'reminded' when negligent then it is in human nature to "untick that box" and actually stop paying attention. Kinda like one less thing to worry about because I have this reminder. And hence the conversation.

Most of us (if not all) are not against additional safety features. Some of us are against the idea that will be the consequence of such tech.

To bring this back around to Tesla again, I have a question for all those “anti warning about kids left in the back”:

Automatic Emergency Braking - Why does this feature exist? How could you be SO inattentive as a driver to require something like this? This isn’t “I left my credit car at the bar last night” you are literally driving a 5000 pound death machine capable of accelerating extremely quickly and sustaining very high speeds.

YOU are responsible for the operation of your motor vehicle at all times. I don’t want to hear any BS about “I was tired” or “I was momentarily distracted” or “I never thought it would happen to me.” You chose to buy and operate a car, nobody forced you to do it. Tesla should not have to waste valuable engineering resources on your momentary carelessness. Darwin says you made a bad choice and to hell with you and <whatever you hit.> I want you to disable AEB right now because it’s causing YOU to be a complacent driver.

Back in my day we didn’t have AEB and none of my parents EVER rear ended anybody, therefore, this technology signifies the downfall and laziness of all humankind.

 

[Daniel in SD]

To be fair, we're talking about a pretty serious mistake............

forgetting to use your blinker on a lane change <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< leaving your kid in the car in the August sun.

Running over a 5 kids in a crosswalk > leaving your kid in the car in August sun. That's why cars have automatic emergency braking even though it doesn't work 100% of the time. I agree that automation complacency is a real thing but I don't think it it negates the benefits of AEB or a system that alerts when a child is left in the back seat. The real elephant in the room is Autopilot which I believe is far more likely to cause automation complacency though that's a subject for another thread.

 

[Daniel in SD]

If you want to talk about this, fine. AEB is a tech that helps you react faster. As a human your perception + reaction is way slower than a machine even if you are paying 100% attention. AEB is designed (or should be) for cases where something you can't predict or react fast enough will help you prevent.
I for one hope that AEB will never even be used in my car as I am a safe driver, keep the right distance and adjust accordingly due to weather etc. but because some people drive like assholes and you can't never control those situations I hope that the split second, that the car reacts faster than its humanly possible, will prevent some damage to the car or an accident.
AEB is not there to be inattentive - its just meant to be extension to you as the reaction from those sensor will superseed any human on the planet.
The feature you guys are talking about is not about extension of reaction or something like that. Its basically to safe your ass when negligent. And here lies the problem. When you give humans tools to be 'reminded' when negligent then it is in human nature to "untick that box" and actually stop paying attention. Kinda like one less thing to worry about because I have this reminder. And hence the conversation.

Most of us (if not all) are not against additional safety features. Some of us are against the idea that will be the consequence of such tech.

AEB does not react faster than an attentive human. It's not designed for that. It's designed to activate as late as possible so as not to have false positives. At higher speeds it's not even designed to prevent collision, just to mitigate the damage.

 

[Gloor]

AEB does not react faster than an attentive human. It's not designed for that. It's designed to activate as late as possible so as not to have false positives. At higher speeds it's not even designed to prevent collision, just to mitigate the damage.

My bad, from the videos I've seen the AEB seemed to demonstrate breaking or avoidance faster than human. Maybe I've misunderstood.
Anyway, I think I'm going to stop replying here as it seems to go in circles.
Have a great rest of the week guys (and girls)

 

[MrFC1000]

The solution doesn't have to be sophisticated. A simple "Kid Mode" that can be enabled as a default setting by concerned parents. It just puts a huge reminder screen up with an audio cue when the door is opened " Is your child in a car seat?"

Reminds people when entering (in case they forgot their kid somewhere), and reminds them when leaving (in case they forgot they're still in the car"

Simple and effective.

 

[Rockster]

Tesla shouldn't risk it. We already have people blaming Tesla because a driver didn't notice an 18-wheeler sitting across his path.

All it takes it one failure of Tesla's child protection technology that results in the death of a child and they would be crucified.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla shouldn't risk it. We already have people blaming Tesla because a driver didn't notice an 18-wheeler sitting across his path.

All it takes it one failure of Tesla's child protection technology that results in the death of a child and they would be crucified.

Should they remove automatic emergency braking for the same reason?

 

[Rockster]

Should they remove automatic emergency braking for the same reason?

Yeah, because the failure of automatic emergency braking to completely prevent a rear end collision is pretty much the same thing as letting someone's child die.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Yeah, because the failure of automatic emergency braking to completely prevent a rear end collision is pretty much the same thing as letting someone's child die.

I guess I have to be more specific. Should they remove the automatic emergency braking for all pedestrians? Or only for children?

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I guess I'll just have to live with the stigma of being a monster who doesn't want kids to die, but wants parents to step back from digital distractions, and parent again.

HOW F-ING DARE I!!!!

I hope no children die in a hot car. Shame on anyone who put the words in my mouth or misinterpreted in that way, but I get it, for you to be right, I have to be absolutely wrong, so making me out to be a monster, with no grey area left open for interpretation, is the easier play.

Do any of you work in politics?




Here's a scenario to ponder about how our brains work:

How many of you ALSO have an ICE at home? After driving the Tesla for weeks at a time, then getting into an ICE, how weird are the driving dynamics? The controls? The chimes? You've put it in Park and tried to get out and walk away with the keys still in and engine running, haven't you?

Now imagine you've been in the Tesla exclusively for 3 weeks, and your brain is attuned to it, but you need to take your spouse's ICE today, with kiddo in the back. Tesla instituted a backseat safety chime 3 months ago, and you love it. It's reminded you a few times to get your kid out of the back.

It's a warm August day, and you get all the way to work after a PITA commute, and you go inside, because hey...no chime, right?

Whose fault will it be? Will it be yours? Will it be Tesla's?


I'm not against it. I'm against the complacency it will breed with parents who may already be susceptible to distraction. In my scenario, I'd almost argue that the feature would indirectly be MORE dangerous, because you wouldn't have it in another vehicle.

Call it Devil's Advocate, call me a monster, I'm just being realistic about human nature.

I think the Disagree feature is broken or needs reworking. You can't possibly disagree with my anti-dead child stance. Being pro-dead kid is a very bold stance indeed.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I guess I have to be more specific. Should they remove the automatic emergency braking for all pedestrians? Or only for children?

aahhh, the strawman. paint your opponent as Pro Deathrace 5000, anti-pedestrian child.


that old chestnut

 

[Daniel in SD]

aahhh, the strawman. paint your opponent as Pro Deathrace 5000, anti-pedestrian child.


that old chestnut

How is AEB for pedestrians not comparable to a system that prevents leaving children in the backseat?

 

[ModelNforNerd]

How is AEB for pedestrians not comparable to a system that prevents leaving children in the backseat?

What if I told you that AEB was for all collisions?

It's not specifically for pedestrians, or even pedestrian children.


You stitched that definition together to fit your agenda.


It works on vehicles too.

 

[Daniel in SD]

What if I told you that AEB was for all collisions?

It's not specifically for pedestrians, or even pedestrian children.


You stitched that definition together to fit your agenda.


It works on vehicles too.

Yes, it's called making an argument. My argument is that there are already systems in the car that prevent mistakes, save children's lives, and don't work 100% of the time and those systems don't have the problems you're worried about. I'm not sure why the fact that the system is also programmed to prevent or mitigate collisions with cars has any relevance. Perhaps you can explain.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Yes, it's called making an argument. My argument is that there are already systems in the car that prevent mistakes, save children's lives, and don't work 100% of the time and those systems don't have the problems you're worried about. I'm not sure why the fact that the system is also programmed to prevent or mitigate collisions with cars has any relevance. Perhaps you can explain.

Those systems don't have those problems?

The media loves it when autopilot fails and someone dies.

I can only imagine the feeding frenzy when back seat alarm fails to go off. because we all know that the media has scruples and morals and wouldn't jump on that, right?


Anyway, getting tired of being made the bad guy for wanting people to be responsible for their own outcome.

Continue to argue amongst yourselves.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Those systems don't have those problems?

The media loves it when autopilot fails and someone dies.

I can only imagine the feeding frenzy when back seat alarm fails to go off. because we all know that the media has scruples and morals and wouldn't jump on that, right?


Anyway, getting tired of being made the bad guy for wanting people to be responsible for their own outcome.

Continue to argue amongst yourselves.

You have quite the victim complex. Your arguments are all over the place.
Autopilot gets media attention because people (falsely) assume the car is supposed to be driving itself. That's not the case for other safety systems which only take over when something goes wrong. Also, letting "the media" decide how you implement safety systems doesn't seem great.
I'm not sure what people being responsible for their own outcome has to do with anything since the actual victims are completely innocent.