Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Can someone help me understand how my battery is possibly 75 kWh?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
13501912-A82A-4F87-9E32-284F48F5CE2E.jpeg
I have a LR RWD and stated mileage capacity of 312 miles on a full charge. I keep the battery indicator on percentage mode normally.

BUT, no matter how many times I divide my kWh used by battery percentage used, I get somewhere between 63-68 kWh. I have even charged to 90% and discharged to 10% to allow it to calibrate. I thought maybe phantom drain even though I switched off sentry and summon.

Today I drove 146 miles and used 66% of my battery (from 95% to 29% after a 100% overnight charge) and 45.14 kWh which comes to 68.4 kWh capacity. Efficiency was 315 wh/mi (I had a full car going 85 mph), so 146-66% = 221 miles per full charge. This is also lower than I would expect (240wh/310 miles x 315wh = 243 miles)

What gives?? If my battery capacity was degraded the full meter wouldn’t show 312 miles. I don’t understand what’s going on.
 
A few things that you may not have considered or factored in...

  • Tesla reserves a buffer of around 3 kWh that you cannot use so you will not be able to use the entirety of the roughly 75 kWh battery pack.
  • 240 wh/mi is not the value used to calculate the rated range on a Long Range RWD Model 3. It is more like 230 wh/mi.
  • Using the amount of energy consumed on a trip is not an accurate way to calculate battery capacity because regen braking can allow you to consume more energy during the course of a trip than the battery pack can even hold at one time. For instance you could consume 80 kWh of energy in a single trip even though that is higher than the battery pack capacity.
 
Last edited:
I wish I remembered the source but I recently saw/read that a Model 3 battery needs to be asleep for at least 3 hours (not plugged in) to give it time to calibrate again. This may just be a random piece of information that doesn’t help you though - ha!
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Arctic_White
I wish I remembered the source but I recently saw/read that a Model 3 battery needs to be asleep for at least 3 hours (not plugged in) to give it time to calibrate again. This may just be a random piece of information that doesn’t help you though - ha!
It’s in the sticky section of the battery and charging forum, right next to the other thread that covers the rest of OP’s concerns in nauseating amounts of repetitive detail.

How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity
 
  • Like
  • Informative
Reactions: house9 and chrstna4
Hey!

So, first, TeslaFi does bad math. The below quote is from a thread where I address this (feel free to read it, or just take my word for it):

The third-party tools use the Tesla API data which, yes, is the very same data you see in the app (and thus in the car as well to some extent). There are higher inaccuracies at lower states of charge - you cannot assume the "absolute error" for range at a lower SoC is the same at higher SoC.

Let's take my car's data, right now, from the API. In-app it's displaying 262km of range, which is about 162.8mi, thus the 162.85 below.

'battery_level': 55,
'battery_range': 162.85,
'est_battery_range': 236.2,
'ideal_battery_range': 162.85,
'usable_battery_level': 55,
There are a few very important things to note here:
  • Any representation of percentage is rounded. This is the primary source of error. At 20%, this could be either 19.5% or 20.49%. Since you divide by this to estimate range at max, this introduces huge variance at lower percentages (note how at 1%, it ranges from 0.5% to 1.49% - that's a 50% swing, showing where this increased variance comes from).
  • I have no idea what "est_battery_range" is. Assuming it's miles that's ~380km, far too low for representing the 100% state and far too high for its current state. Assuming it's somehow in km, it doesn't jive with anything else.
  • The numbers the apps use are the temperature-varying ones. For tracking actual battery health, this is unfair. Lower capacity is reported in cold, though this is not an actual indicator of degraded battery health.
So let's do the math these services would do. Take the current range (162.85) and divide by the percentage (0.55). That comes out to 296.1mi, or 476.5km. Also, in the app, if I drag the slider to 100%, reports that my 100% range is also about 476km, because it's doing the exact same calculation on the exact same data. So far so good, right?

Now recall the issue I mentioned with rounded numbers. I happen to know via the CAN bus that the actual SoC right now is 54.5%. If I use that instead, I get about 481km (and this is pretty much the actual 100% range of my car right now). But had it actually been 55.49% (and still reported "55"), that would falsely indicate 472km. That's already a 9km (5.6mi) spread.

At lower SoC, it gets even worse. Say at 10%, it was reporting 48.10km. But that "10" could be 9.5 or 10.499, which would indicate 100% ranges of 506km and 458km respectively. That is now a ridiculous 48km (~30mi) spread. In other words, that's 10% of the max range.

100% range estimates are estimates, whether it's a third-party service or the Tesla app
, and their accuracy is worse at lower SoC.

Now, that is not to say the current range number in the car is inaccurate.
That one is a pretty dang accurate representation of the current energy in the pack. The error is introduced when using a rounded, low significant digit percentage to estimate the 100% capacity.

These services have their place and can provide value, but the recommendation to throw away data for <90% SoC (if the service allows this) is absolutely warranted. Anything much below that has too much error for discussion on single-digit percentage degradations.

Now, with that addressed, let's get to your capacity expectations. Apologies ahead of time for the confusing mix of information.

The first is that 75kWh is a myth. A convenient, round-numbered myth, and it's even kinda close to the truth. But it's far enough away from the truth to be significant! The total battery capacity includes a buffer that exists below 0% on the screen - you can still drive at this point (and the do for EPA testing), but it's not dependable energy. So you have to be careful with EPA numbers as well. The EPA suggests something around 79kWh for an LR Model 3, depending on which one they tested. The design capacity seems to be actually around 77.5-77.8kWh. But the usable capacity is roughly 95.5% of that. So at brand new, you have about 74kWh usable available.

I assume you gave a mix of numbers from both TeslaFi and your car. I plugged some of them into a calculator I'm making, and it gives an uncertainty of +-3% (meaning you can't really take those numbers to mean much). But I don't know what numbers to trust! You say 146 miles, but TeslaFi says 143.1, for example.

So, I haven't got a clue what your capacity is right now. Like I said, TeslaFi does bad math. It may be in the ballpark, but we can't know right now and need better info. For example, this 312 mile figure - are you getting that from the car, or TeslaFi? If from the car at 100%, it's implying only a 6% capacity loss. For the LR RWD specifically, they did some weird stuff with changing the ratings with updates, resulting in some people ending up with "higher range" than when they bought the car, but not the max range it could display. It's a weird mix of things.

I won't give any more concrete statement than that since I don't have concrete numbers to work with. All that is clear is that your battery has some capacity loss greater than zero, but this is true for any Tesla that has existed more than a couple weeks.

---

So, just charge the car to 100% if you want to know where you're at one day. See what range it indicates at 100% (but do make sure it is actually 100% when you are reading it). That'll be the only concrete way to know what your battery capacity is without more invasive setups.

It’s in the sticky section of the battery and charging forum, right next to the other thread that covers the rest of OP’s concerns in nauseating amounts of repetitive detail.

How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

This thread is mostly off-topic for OP.
 
OP: did you reset the trip meter at 95% SoC ?
I'm wondering if your stated Wh/mile is for 100 -> 29 SoC or 95 -> 29 SoC

IIRC the EPA constant for your car is 237 Wh/mile
Starting from 100% SoC, each mile you drive decrements the range meter by 1.045 EPA miles to give you a safety buffer.
At 100% SoC, 312 RM is 312*0.237 = 73.944 kWh usable
.. each 1 percent = 100/73.944 = 0.73945 kWh

Now we plug numbers into your trip
146 miles at 315 Wh/mile (if that is indeed the case) = 45.99 kWh. The range meter will decrement 45.99*1.045 = 48.0595 kWh
= 48.05955/0.7394 = 65% from the highway portion

Your total SoC drop for the day then is 5% (from the pre-highway drive) + 65% = 70%
 
Last edited:
OP: did you reset the trip meter at 95% SoC ?
I'm wondering if your stated Wh/mile is for 100 -> 29 SoC or 95 -> 29 SoC

IIRC the EPA constant for your car is 237 Wh/mile
Starting from 100% SoC, each mile you drive decrements the range meter by 1.045 EPA miles to give you a safety buffer.
At 100% SoC, 312 RM is 312*0.237 = 73.944 kWh usable
.. each 1 percent = 100/73.944 = 0.73945 kWh

Now we plug numbers into your trip
146 miles at 315 Wh/mile (if that is indeed the case) = 45.99 kWh. The range meter will decrement 45.99*1.045 = 48.0595 kWh
= 48.05955/0.7394 = 65% from the highway portion

Your total SoC drop for the day then is 5% (from the pre-highway drive) + 65% = 70%

Their constant is not 237Wh/mi. It is a good amount less. See here: 2020, 2019, 2018 Model 3 Battery Capacities & Charging Constants (they have a Dec 2017 LR RWD, which messes up a lot of tracked data due to updates changing the reported range)

A "new capacity" 2017-2019 LR RWD would report 325mi, whereas a LR AWD prior to 2020 can only report a max of 310mi no matter what. This is why I said 312mi @ 100% would indicate some degradation (but given that it's from late 2017, this is probably a very healthy battery compared to others).

No Model 3 from 2017/2018 is going to have near 74kWh usable. That's essentially their day-one capacity, which rapidly falls a couple percent within the first few thousand miles.
 
Thank you @camalaio and @SageBrush for your thorough responses.

I have some more data.

Our trip back -
SC from 23 - 80% SOC, Added 41.90 KwH, extrapolated 100% = 73.5 KwH
141.5 miles driven, 218.93 miles used, 339Wh/mi, 47.96 KwH, 70% battery usage = 68.5 KwH

Next day
Charge to 10%-88%, added 55.74 KwH, extrapolated to 100% = 71.46 KwH
Drive 14.09 miles, use 6% and 3.92 KwH @ 278 Wh/mi
Drive 14 mi, use 6% and 3.73 KwH @ 266 Wh/mi
Drive 32.64 mi, use 13% and 8.43 KwH @ 258 Wh/mi = 64.8 KwH (or 67.4 KwH if using 12.5%)
Drive 25.37 mi, use 9% and 6.17 KwH @ 243 Wh/mi = 68.6 KwH (or 72.6 KwH if using 8.5%)

But if I add this all up, I used 36% (from 88-52%) and (22.25 KwH driving + 2.89 KwH of phantom from cabin overheat), extrapolated 100% 69.8 KwH.


Last night
Charge to 52- 100%, added 34.73 KwH, Range at 99% SoC = 309 mi (from display), total KwH = 72.4 KwH

It seems overall when adding charge I show a capacity of 72-73 KwH, but when driving I typically get somewhere around 65-69 KwH.

I have attached screenshots from TeslaFi.

Screen Shot 2020-09-14 at 9.32.44 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-09-14 at 9.36.17 AM.png
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Arctic_White
Guys please help me keep this thread on topic. I'm just trying to figure out my real world usability and efficiency especially after having taken a fully loaded car on a 320mi round trip this past weekend with family. This has nothing to do with ICE because gas stations are much easier to find and take less time than charging during road trips. Also it's fairly common knowledge and I'm sure listed somewhere that the LR have a ~75 KwH pack.

Hoping for responses from @camalaio @SageBrush and @AlanSubie4Life or anyone else that has insights into these calculations.
 
Guys please help me keep this thread on topic. I'm just trying to figure out my real world usability and efficiency especially after having taken a fully loaded car on a 320mi round trip this past weekend with family. This has nothing to do with ICE because gas stations are much easier to find and take less time than charging during road trips. Also it's fairly common knowledge and I'm sure listed somewhere that the LR have a ~75 KwH pack.

Hoping for responses from @camalaio @SageBrush and @AlanSubie4Life or anyone else that has insights into these calculations.


@camalaio DID answer you, though, in this very thread:

Hey!

So, first, TeslaFi does bad math. The below quote is from a thread where I address this (feel free to read it, or just take my word for it):



Now, with that addressed, let's get to your capacity expectations. Apologies ahead of time for the confusing mix of information.

The first is that 75kWh is a myth. A convenient, round-numbered myth, and it's even kinda close to the truth. But it's far enough away from the truth to be significant! ..............................

But the usable capacity is roughly 95.5% of that. So at brand new, you have about 74kWh usable available.
 
Thank you @camalaio and @SageBrush for your thorough responses.

I have some more data.

Our trip back -
SC from 23 - 80% SOC, Added 41.90 KwH, extrapolated 100% = 73.5 KwH
141.5 miles driven, 218.93 miles used, 339Wh/mi, 47.96 KwH, 70% battery usage = 68.5 KwH

Next day
Charge to 10%-88%, added 55.74 KwH, extrapolated to 100% = 71.46 KwH
Drive 14.09 miles, use 6% and 3.92 KwH @ 278 Wh/mi
Drive 14 mi, use 6% and 3.73 KwH @ 266 Wh/mi
Drive 32.64 mi, use 13% and 8.43 KwH @ 258 Wh/mi = 64.8 KwH (or 67.4 KwH if using 12.5%)
Drive 25.37 mi, use 9% and 6.17 KwH @ 243 Wh/mi = 68.6 KwH (or 72.6 KwH if using 8.5%)

But if I add this all up, I used 36% (from 88-52%) and (22.25 KwH driving + 2.89 KwH of phantom from cabin overheat), extrapolated 100% 69.8 KwH.


Last night
Charge to 52- 100%, added 34.73 KwH, Range at 99% SoC = 309 mi (from display), total KwH = 72.4 KwH

It seems overall when adding charge I show a capacity of 72-73 KwH, but when driving I typically get somewhere around 65-69 KwH.

I have attached screenshots from TeslaFi.

View attachment 588029 View attachment 588030

As requested, answered here: 2020, 2019, 2018 Model 3 Battery Capacities & Charging Constants

But I would also add:
Your use numbers above are lacking sufficient accuracy because you are quoting %. That can introduce significant error. If you record the actual rated miles used for each leg you'll derive the ~219Wh/rmi discharge "constant."

Anyway, what you're observing makes perfect sense. The kWh added in Teslafi can't be trusted (I think it's user adjustable with a scalar...but you don't need that info anyway). The kWh added on the charging screen in the car can be trusted, but doesn't represent energy added to the battery. (It's just 234Wh/rmi multiplied by the number of rated miles added.) Just record rated miles added next time at each charging event. (Teslafi tracks this too and assuming that matches the car display, you can just use that Teslafi data - though I would not.)

Everything looks normal to me. You seem to have about 7% battery capacity reduction from new. That's quite good.

I'm responding quickly to this, so apologize for any errors, but summary again is that everything looks 100% normal. No issues.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: jjrandorin
The best explanation that I can find is here:

Tesla Model 3 Battery Pack & Battery Cell Teardown Highlights Performance Improvements
and here:
Tesla Model 3 2170 Energy Density Compared To Bolt, Model S P100D

There's 4416 2170-type batteries in the Model 3 packs. Each one of those batteries is supposed to have a capacity of 17.3Wh (nominal Li-ion voltage of 3.6V @ 4.8Ah) . SImple math then says the Model 3 has an ideal capacity of 76396.8Wh, or somewhat over 76kWh.

Along with all of the previous statements made here about an energy reserve being maintained and the dubious calculations of efficiency from the car itself, you'll just have to believe that the car has 75kWh.
 
you'll just have to believe that the car has 75kWh.

To be clear, this is when new, not including the buffer (which presumably you’ll never use!) - at that point you have about 74.5kWh.

For @hari-bhari, again not including the buffer, he has about 69kWh available these days. Which is normal for a 2+ year old car.

The total energy that can be extracted from a relatively new car (4k miles) has been repeatedly measured (by Tesla, and occasionally the EPA) to be ~79kWh. That is using calibrated equipment so presumably is more accurate than any in-car meter. AND (critically!) that energy includes the buffer.
 
The usable energy in the Model 3 LR is more like 72.5kwh. So lets say 72kwh. Notice your efficiency is only 68.9% driving at 85mph and using 315wh/m. 72000 / 315 = ~230 miles. So you should be only getting around 230 miles driving at that speed with that energy usage. The miles you are getting is correct.

72.5 usable energy in battery is from Teslabjorn, who has tested Teslas for years and years. He has done a usable battery test on the Model 3.

Even with a 74kwh battery you are only getting 235 miles with that type of driving. If you want more range, you need to slow down.
 
Last edited: