Can you buy too much Solar?

[Quickstart88]

Let me clarify this statement having just got my first true up bill a few months ago and watching a $900 kWh credit get wiped to $0 with no payout (I am SCE, but I think all the CA utilities work the same minus the small co-ops/CCA)

You have to generate more KWH than you used in the year. Not kWh credits. So if I generated 10,000kWh for the year, but say I used 12,000kWh I am not eligible for any $$ back because I am not a net generator. I still had $900 in kWh credits at true up due to net metering and using most of my energy at night rates to charge the car when the solar was mostly dumping to the grid at the peak rates during the day.

So I paid about $20 to $25/month in NBCs (non bypassable charges) had $900 in credit at the end of the year, and that credit was wiped to zero. Seemed a bit like a kick in the gut, honestly.

I could have turned my system off for 2 months and burned down that credit, and I might consider it next year if my credits get that high again. As it is, we added a hot tub which will burn more energy.

So I feel like you can oversize your system in CA with the current rules if $$ is the only factor (not being greener, etc).

So you still pay the minimum of $20 to $25 per month probably connection fees . Let's say $25x12 months =$300. They should of take the $900 credits and off set the $300 hence you should get a check for $600? Or at least roll the credits to next year.
I say undersized the system a tad is the way to go to reduce your total system cost. That's why i am thinking about the 3.8 kW system.
I'll pull from the grid (TOU) at a lower rate for night time EV charging and pay at lower rate.
Not sure if that's the way to go.

It's 10k before incentive or 7.5K for the 3.8 kW system.
Or
Size a 5 kW system for 16k before incentive to completely offset the entire bill.

But those hidden connection fees at ~ $300 a year sure eat in the saving.

 

[Az_Rael]

They should of take the $900 credits and off set the $300 hence you should get a check for $600? Or at least roll the credits to next year.

They should. But they do not, unfortunately.

Apparently it is very beneficial to join a CCA if you can for this reason. Unfortunately, that are no CCAs that service my city right now. There is one a block away, but that is in a different city, alas.


Your NBCs might be less. It is not only a connection charge, but also a fee per kWh you pull from the grid. If you are not pulling a lot, you will pay less. I need more than 2 powerwalls to fix that, but I do have my powerwalls set to reduce my NBCs vs power arbitrage.

 

[d21mike]

They should. But they do not, unfortunately.

Apparently it is very beneficial to join a CCA if you can for this reason. Unfortunately, that are no CCAs that service my city right now. There is one a block away, but that is in a different city, alas.


Your NBCs might be less. It is not only a connection charge, but also a fee per kWh you pull from the grid. If you are not pulling a lot, you will pay less. I need more than 2 powerwalls to fix that, but I do have my powerwalls set to reduce my NBCs vs power arbitrage.

You said you had $900 in credits. I was told my SCE that you create credits for use at a later time. The credit is produced at the $$ rate it was credited. And when used it is used at maybe a lower $$ rate than was credited. So you could use more kWh for the same cost because of this difference.

However, at TRUE UP my understanding it is not based on the $$ rate you credited. It is simple the number of kWh credited x wholesale rate of $.03.

If I understood it correctly then what you think is $900 credits is not what you get back. It would be the number of credited kWh x $.03 which might/would be less?

Did i miss understand SCE? My thinking at the time was that I should use as much of the credit as I could and not worry about the refund. But, your point about fixed cost per kWh used (credit or otherwise) is not wiped out. So, maybe best to try and fully use my Power Walls and try not to use my credits and simply wait to get a refund. Just not sure at this point.

 

[Az_Rael]

You said you had $900 in credits. I was told my SCE that you create credits for use at a later time. The credit is produced at the $$ rate it was credited. And when used it is used at maybe a lower $$ rate than was credited. So you could use more kWh for the same cost because of this difference.

However, at TRUE UP my understanding it is not based on the $$ rate you credited. It is simple the number of kWh credited x wholesale rate of $.03.

If I understood it correctly then what you think is $900 credits is not what you get back. It would be the number of credited kWh x $.03 which might/would be less?

Did i miss understand SCE? My thinking at the time was that I should use as much of the credit as I could and not worry about the refund. But, your point about fixed cost per kWh used (credit or otherwise) is not wiped out. So, maybe best to try and fully use my Power Walls and try not to use my credits and simply wait to get a refund. Just not sure at this point.

You understood SCE. The nuance that I missed is the $.03/kWh only gets paid if you generate more kWh in the year than you use. So the credits should be spent if you are not going to be a net generator because then they disappear at the end of the true up. Hence my half-serious plan to turn my system off in the last month to burn credits down.

I am sized at 80% of my annual usage. That was plenty to offset my bills (other than the dang NBCs that cant be offset), but there is no way I will be a net generator short of selling an EV and going back to ICE. If I had sized for 100% or more, I dont know how giant my credit would be at the true up. Probably not worth the extra costs for the panels/inverters, etc since the only one benefiting would be SCE at that point.

 

[Quickstart88]

You understood SCE. The nuance that I missed is the $.03/kWh only gets paid if you generate more kWh in the year than you use. So the credits should be spent if you are not going to be a net generator because then they disappear at the end of the true up. Hence my half-serious plan to turn my system off in the last month to burn credits down.

I am sized at 80% of my annual usage. That was plenty to offset my bills (other than the dang NBCs that cant be offset), but there is no way I will be a net generator short of selling an EV and going back to ICE. If I had sized for 100% or more, I dont know how giant my credit would be at the true up. Probably not worth the extra costs for the panels/inverters, etc since the only one benefiting would be SCE at that point.

If you under size it like 80%. I was thinking about that. I just don't know what my bills will look like. You have the connection fees plus all the other SCE fees. The connection fees could be as much as $300 a year ($25 per month) that's not including all the other SCE fees, taxes, and the actual juice cost pulling from the grid based on TOU.

For example: If your bill is 100 a month prior to solar. Going with solar, off the bat you are down 25% or $25 month with solar.

 

[Az_Rael]

If you under size it like 80%. I was thinking about that. I just don't know what my bills will look like. You have the connection fees plus all the other SCE fees. The connection fees could be as much as $300 a year ($25 per month) that's not including all the other SCE fees, taxes, and the actual juice cost pulling from the grid based on TOU.

For example: If your bill is 100 a month prior to solar. Going with solar, off the bat you are down 25% or $25 month with solar.

Oh, yeah, with a super low bill it makes zero sense. I had bills in the $400 to $500 range. Although I don’t think someone who had that low of a bill pre-solar would have that high of NBC’s. But they are super hard to account for before buying your system.

Of course there is the new rental thing Tesla is doing too. That has zero upfront costs I think.

 

[d21mike]

If you under size it like 80%. I was thinking about that. I just don't know what my bills will look like. You have the connection fees plus all the other SCE fees. The connection fees could be as much as $300 a year ($25 per month) that's not including all the other SCE fees, taxes, and the actual juice cost pulling from the grid based on TOU.

For example: If your bill is 100 a month prior to solar. Going with solar, off the bat you are down 25% or $25 month with solar.

SCE (and others) will be forcing customers onto the New TOU Rates soon. Maybe already. I have the older TOU that is best for me to charge my car between 10-8am. My bill when not in the 4 months of AC (I live near Redondo Beach) is about 165 per month. During the 4 months it is between 250-400. Not counting my AC months my kWh usage is the heaviest between 10-8am because of my car. And we just got a second Tesla. Keep in mind some of the taxes and fees are based on the number of kWh used. So if you are using much less then they should be reduced. But my bill has a 50 cent per day fixed cost which is about $15 per month. One of the New TOU Rates may have a lower per day fixed charge but maybe not that much lower. The old non-TOU did not have a fixed daily charge that I can remember. I will be getting 2 PowerWalls partly because I want a whole home power backup and I just want too. My wife is also retiring and I work from home so our power usage during the day will go up. My Solar production will be 20% (at least) > then my usage at in the beginning but we have other plans for more usage. So, with the power walls and the over production and I play with my usage to see what is best.

 

[Az_Rael]

SCE (and others) will be forcing customers onto the New TOU Rates soon. Maybe already

Oh, yeah, I think new customers have to go on them now. They suck for solar customers. I think my bill will go up a lot once I am forced off my current plan in a couple years when the grandfathering runs out. Gonna have to buy another powerwall or something.

 

[BM3B]

Good thread thanks for the info, I see we have some so cal Edison users like me, I can use some advice

I have done some math, I think it’s right:
Ignoring my Model 3 charging on dedicated meter...
1,500 sq ft home
35 kWh per day average for full year (between 15-60 kWh per day)
Last years SCE bill $1,800 for my house
Projected cost for one year rental for 7.5 kW system is $1,560 ($130 x 12)
+ usage charge and unavoidable fees from SCE since I won’t have Powerwall is $625 (I looked at three seasonal examples and calculated my new TOU grid feed or pull by hour and extrapolated for the year)

New Tesla solar panel rental and balance pulled from grid will cost $2,200
Last year’s bill $1,800

So it will cost me $400 more per month and I have the risk that the system fails then I get destroyed for peak usage without solar.

Seems like even with the zero installation and zero removal fee I will still lose money. This is disappointing. I may still do it for environmental reasons but not financial.

I will look at the small system too.

 

[miimura]

So it will cost me $400 more per month and I have the risk that the system fails then I get destroyed for peak usage without solar.

I believe you meant $400 per YEAR.

 

[Akikiki]

Need a bigger house and turn on all the lights.

That was not helpful was it? I've gone to my room.

 

[BM3B]

I believe you meant $400 per YEAR.

Yes $400 per year

I ran the numbers for small and large system, they are worse. TOU plan really penalizes solar in SoCal