Canadian Leaf Owners are Frustrated

[S'toon]

You might think that Nissan, the first car-maker to achieve widespread success with a zero-emissions electric vehicle, cares deeply about the environment. But Clayton Brander isn't so sure.


Three years ago, the Powell River, B.C., resident chose to buy a used 2013 Nissan Leaf, motivated by a keen interest in sustainability.


"I love the car," he said. "Honestly, in three years and 40,000 kilometres, I've replaced a set of tires and windshield wiper fluid. Nothing breaks down. It's a fantastic little vehicle. I think electric vehicles are the way to go."


But nowadays, instead of being able to drive the 120 km that 2013 Leafs could initially go on a full charge, Brander can't get much more than 80 km. He has even become hesitant about turning on the heat or window defroster, since using those features require battery power and will reduce his driving range even further.


Brander always knew that batteries lose capacity over time, and he figured it wouldn't be a problem getting a new one.


"The dealership where I bought the car said that in a few years, you can replace the battery for about $5,000," said Brander.


But now, he can't find one. He's tried two nearby Nissan dealerships, three local repair shops and contacted Nissan Canada.


"Nissan hasn't been helpful. I've sent probably six emails to them," said Brander. "They keep telling me to go to the dealership. I called my local dealership and they sent emails to Nissan Canada. Six weeks later, neither of us has gotten a response."


Both dealerships told him that a new battery — if he can find one — could cost him at least $15,000, which would be more than he paid for the vehicle in the first place.

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Full article at:
Owner of all-electric Nissan Leaf frustrated by difficulty of getting new battery

 

[wayner]

Wonder why the battery has degraded so much. My Model S is from 2014 and I haven't seen more than a couple precent degradation in the batteries. And I am not sure if it is the batteries or the software as my 90% range dropped after doing a software upgrade a year or so ago.

 

[jerry33]

Wonder why the battery has degraded so much. My Model S is from 2014 and I haven't seen more than a couple precent degradation in the batteries. And I am not sure if it is the batteries or the software as my 90% range dropped after doing a software upgrade a year or so ago.

The Leaf battery is only cooled by air. Tesla's batteries have liquid cooling and heating, the battery management system is very sophisticated. There's really no comparison.

 

[chronoreverse]

This is specifically a major problem with all pre-2014 Leafs and most 2014 Leafs because of a combination of lack of active liquid cooling and the battery chemistry. In late 2014, Nissan revised the chemistry which improved the degradation rate and then later they introduced their "lizard battery" which reduced the degradation further.

I'm still not a fan because of their lazy lack of liquid cooling and I'm sure in hot areas like Texas the degradation will still be higher than every single other EV manufacturer (who all use liquid cooling).

 

[ecarfan]

The Leaf battery is only cooled by air. Tesla's batteries have liquid cooling and heating, the battery management system is very sophisticated. There's really no comparison.

Agreed. I think it is well established that Nissan’s air-cooled battery management system is not sufficient to prevent a relatively high level of battery capacity loss over time. In contrast, Tesla uses a liquid-cooled system and probably more sophisticated software to minimize degradation. Over almost 4 years and 62K miles my 2013 S85 lost only a few percent of capacity. In over 3 years and 50K miles my 2017 X100D has lost the same.

 

[jerry33]

2013 S85 lost only a few percent of capacity. In over 3 years and 50K miles my 2017 X100D has lost the same.

Yup. My 2013 lost about 8% in seven years 130K miles. The initial estimate was 5% the first year and 1% subsequent years. That would be 11-12%, so mine did better than expected. The new X doesn't have many miles yet.

 

[MD-2000]

I recall also reading they used soft battery "packs", instead of individual batteries contained by metal shells (the Tesla ones look like a AA cell). The lack of solid cell walls meant the batteries could expand and contract a lot with the heat (again, no coolant) and that frequent size variation cycle contributed to the deterioration of the batteries.

There's a few Youtube videos of driving the Autobahn at 240+ kph in a Tesla, and after about 20 minutes at that speed, the car automatically slows down to 90kph to let the battery cool. (Then after about 10 minutes, resumes the crazy speed). So much better sophisticated battery temp management in a Tesla.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The Leaf battery is only cooled by air. Tesla's batteries have liquid cooling and heating, the battery management system is very sophisticated. There's really no comparison.

More accurately, the Leaf battery is not actively cooled at all. The only thing that can cool it is the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

The e-NV200 van has a fan, so can actually be called air-cooled.

Early PEVs are unwanted by the manufacturers. They promised cheapish battery replacements, and now the price is much higher. Volt owners have run into the same thing.

People are naive in thinking that they'll have a cheap upgrade available for their BEV in the future. Maybe, just maybe, some will have aftermarket batteries. But if not, the manufacturers want to sell you a new car, not a new battery so expect to pay through the nose.

And, no, Nerfla doesn't care about the owners of its old vehicles any more than Nissan does.

 

[TheRFMan]

I'm still not a fan because of their lazy lack of liquid cooling and I'm sure in hot areas like Texas the degradation will still be higher than every single other EV manufacturer (who all use liquid cooling).

For sake of completeness, I'll point out that the VW e-Golf and 1st gen Hyundai Ioniq Electric are not liquid-cooled, as well as a few others not sold in Canada, such as the e-NV200 van mentioned previously. Those models are too new to see how they will play out longevity-wise.

 

[Lon12]

I owned two Leafs. The 2011 was at 84% capacity after 8 years and 51,000 km. The 2017 30 kWh one was at 88% at 53,800 km and three years. They were Canadian cars so were not subjected to high heat.

 

[MD-2000]

Meanwhile, my attitude with my Tesla 3 was - general indications are the batteries will be close to nominal, lose no more than, say, 25% over the first 300,000 to 500,000 miles (probably a lot further). It's been almost 2 years, the car has only 30,000km thanks to (a) earlier lack of TransCanada and ND superchargers and (b) now Covid. If the car runs like those old Volvos for 20 years with minimal cost, who cares after that? By then chargers will be everywhere like gas stations are now (unless there's a serious problem with EV's - I don't foresee any) and being limited to 320km/200mi range instead of 500/300 won't be as serious as it is now.

For Leaf problems - I guess the same applies - keep driving it until it reaches the point where the range is too low to be useful. It's not like an old jalopy burning oil and likely to have the transmission or engine seize at some random time, and leave you stranded on the road - I hope...

Someday soon your destination will also have a charger, and so you don't need enough juice for a round trip. A follow-on question is - does it still take as much power to recharge if the capacity is much lower? Or is the charge cost/km still about the same, just less charging time?

 

[TheRFMan]

For Leaf problems - I guess the same applies - keep driving it until it reaches the point where the range is too low to be useful. It's not like an old jalopy burning oil and likely to have the transmission or engine seize at some random time, and leave you stranded on the road - I hope...

I have no experience with the Leaf, but as the owner of a 2012 Volt I've kept some involvement in forums to see what happens with their batteries. The early Volts have such a huge buffer (the car only used the 20%-80% range, turning a 16 kWh pack into a usable 10 kWh pack) that degradation is not an issue. I have heard cases where the car became inoperable because of cell failures bricking the entire battery. Seems to happen at high mileages (200,000km+) which would be many thousands of charge cycles.

A long-range BEV like a Tesla doesn't experience nearly as many charge cycles in its lifetime as PHEV or short-range BEV with a small battery. If I drive my Volt 50km a day, I pretty much cycle the pack every day. in a Model 3, that's one cycle per week. Makes a big difference in longevity.