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Car’s energy consumption (lack of) accuracy

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That's nearly impossible and definitely not worthwhile. Every module in the car has a BMS board that keeps the cells in balance to prolong the battery life by ensuring no cell is undercharged or overcharged. It does this by bleeding current through a resistor to drop voltage in cell groups that are higher than average. That's lost energy... you would need to track the current dump on each BMS board. What would the benefit of this be?

The objective of the car's "Consumption" meter should be to know... your consumption (ultimately, in $ or €)!
If any energy is lost due to balancing, internal resistance of the battery, AND that lost energy can be accounted for, then it SHOULD be included in the car's Consumption indicator.
Not doing so is simply ignoring actual energy consumption, out of the car's Consumption meter.

Parasitic losses, vampire drain and charging inefficiency are just part of the trade from ICE to EV. You save ~600wh/mi with the electric motor vs ICE, and pay ~30wh/mi in electrical losses... seems like a incredible deal to me. I never assumed the energy meter in the car was the energy used from the wall. How could it be? It was always my understanding that this was energy pulled from the battery. If I wanted to know how much it likely used overall I would just add ~10%....
I'm not talking those ~10% CHARGING losses! Charging losses are banned from this topic! (not to create confusion)

You're not filling the battery with electrons... you're storing energy chemically. Chemical reactions require energy. You don't get all of it back.
Agreed! However, 99,999% of the owners will never know that, because their car’s consumption meter ignores those losses
 
The objective of the car's "Consumption" meter should be to know... your consumption (ultimately, in $ or €)!

I guess that's where we disagree. There's two places you can measure... energy going in or energy going out. I would rather know how much energy the car is using while I'm driving than while I'm charging. If you're that concerned about a few dollars a month you need to buy a meter to install upstream of your EVSE at home...
 
I guess that's where we disagree. There's two places you can measure... energy going in or energy going out. I would rather know how much energy the car is using while I'm driving than while I'm charging. If you're that concerned about a few dollars a month you need to buy a meter to install upstream of your EVSE at home...

Again:
- I'm not concerned about energy going in. Energy going in IS NOT covered in this thread.
- This thread is EXCLUSIVELY related to the energy going out of the battery pack, and the fact that the car's consumption indicator doesn't show the consumption of ALL the energy that was stored in the battery pack.
 
Again:
- I'm not concerned about energy going in. Energy going in IS NOT covered in this thread.
- This thread is EXCLUSIVELY related to the energy going out of the battery pack, and the fact that the car's consumption indicator doesn't show the consumption of ALL the energy that was stored in the battery pack.

??? Which is it

The objective of the car's "Consumption" meter should be to know... your consumption (ultimately, in $ or €)!

OR

- This thread is EXCLUSIVELY related to the energy going out of the battery pack, and the fact that the car's consumption indicator doesn't show the consumption of ALL the energy that was stored in the battery pack.

The unknown variables are larger than the precision you're seeking; For energy going out multiple things affect the efficiency; ambient temperature, age of the battery, power.... I think the consumption meter IS accurate. It's accurately measuring 40kWh coming out of the battery... but it has no way to measure the 1kWh lost to internal resistance, the 1kWh lost to cell balancing over the last 3 days, the 1kWh lost to self-discharge, the 1kWh lost to ambient heat... etc, etc....

There's several ways for 'energy' to 'leave' the pack, the consumption meter only measures one of them.

There's a very simple way to do it:
  1. The car's BMS calculates, in real time, the amount of energy left in the battery. Meaning, in every single moment, the car has information of the kWh left in the pack. That’s were the SoC % indicator comes from.

I suspect this is the root of your misunderstanding... This is not true. The car measures Ah in and Ah out to get an idea of Ah in the battery but moment to moment all the car can see is voltage and that's only part of the picture. You can't compare a battery to a gas tank and it's more complicated than just charging losses. The only way to really know how much energy is in a battery is to discharge it and count the kWh as they come out (even that changes based on rate of discharge)... anything else is just an estimate based on voltage and Ah in/out.

Also; The equation for resistance losses is I²R. Meaning you're losing 4x more energy to heat every time power output doubles... so you might get 40kWh out if you discharge at 5kW but only 35kWh if you discharge at 10kW.
 
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this is the root of your misunderstanding... This is not true. The car measures Ah in and Ah out to get an idea of Ah in the battery but moment to moment all the car can see is voltage and that's only part of the picture.

So, you're saying that it's not true that the car BMS calculates (the word is calculate, not measure) the amount of energy left in the pack.

Is that really what you're saying? Because.... that's what you're saying!

If what you are saying is not what you are saying, please choose your words more carefully, and please read careful what other people write here, so not to mix charge efficiency with discharge efficiency, and because i'm not interested in comparing d*** size, through implying other people are dumb, don't understand thermodynamics and the sorts.
 
So, you're saying that it's not true that the car BMS calculates (the word is calculate, not measure) the amount of energy left in the pack.

Yes; That's what I'm saying. The BMS only knows how much went in and does its best to estimate remaining capacity based on voltage drop. How much is available to come out can be estimated but is largely unknowable. If you drive up a mountain you might ~35kWh out; (you're not just using more energy... more energy is 'lost' inside the battery). If you drive on flat ground with a tail wind you might get ~40kWh out. If you leave the car parked for 2 weeks before doing either you'll get less....

It's FAR more dramatic for lead-acid because the internal resistance is much much higher but you can see how the capacity changes based on rate of discharge. Batteries can't predict the future (yet)... for the battery below the amount of energy available decreases over 70% depending on the rate of discharge. This is why you can't compare a gas tank to a battery. 20gal in = 20 gal out. With a battery 40kWh in = Well... it depends...

Screen Shot 2018-07-10 at 12.21.04 PM.png
 
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Yes; That's what I'm saying. The BMS only knows how much went in and does its best to estimate remaining capacity based on voltage drop. How much is available to come out can be estimated but is largely unknowable. If you drive up a mountain you might ~35kWh out. If you drive on flat ground with a tail wind you might get ~40kWh out. If you leave the car parked to 2 weeks before doing either you'll get less....

Ok, so, you're saying the BMS can't calculate the amount of energy left in the pack, but does its best to estimate the remaining capacity... had no idea those were 2 different things! Thanks!

PS: just to be clear.
1. I'm being sarcastic, sorry.
2. If you connect to the car's Can bus you can read the BMS estimate for the amount of energy left. Of course it's an estimate. Of course that depends of many things like c-value or temperature.
3. 50kwh enter an empty battery. 45kwh leave the battery until it empties. You say hell yea Tesla should continue to report a consumption of 45kwh. I say Tesla should report 50kwh. If an owner can see those 50kwh using nothing more that the car's own BMS info, PLEASE don't say that it can be done, because that's just plain illogical!
 
It's FAR more dramatic for lead-acid because the internal resistance is much much higher but you can see how the capacity changes based on rate of discharge. Batteries can't predict the future (yet)... for the battery below the amount of energy available decreases over 70% depending on the rate of discharge. This is why you can't compare a gas tank to a battery. 20gal in = 20 gal out. With a battery 40kWh in = Well... it depends...

View attachment 315975

Man, I know all of that!!! :(:(
 
Man, I know all of that!!! :(:(

LOL... ok... so why are you complaining about the battery not being 'accurate'; how is it supposed to know the precise capacity if there are so many unknown variables that determine capacity? A = B(x)(y)(z); You're essentially saying you should know A if you know B without knowing x, y or z... how is that possible?

The consumption meter is as accurate as it can possibly be with the information available. And it IS accurately measuring the power out of the battery...

3. 50kwh enter an empty battery. 45kwh leave the battery until it empties. You say hell yea Tesla should continue to report a consumption of 45kwh. I say Tesla should report 50kwh. If an owner can see those 50kwh using nothing more that the car's own BMS info, PLEASE don't say that it can be done, because that's just plain illogical!

I want to know the energy coming out..... 45 IS the energy coming OUT. Where is the 50 supposed to come from? What exactly is measuring 50? That IS NOT the energy coming out. If I wanted to know the energy going in I would measure the energy going in....

If you want to know how much energy the car uses you need to measure AC input...

If you want to know how much the car is using as you drive you need to measure DC output from the battery... the other variables are too complicated to be worth measuring...

That's all you can do. The consumption meter accurately measures the second one... Drive more, worry less.
 
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Ok, so, you're saying the BMS can't calculate the amount of energy left in the pack, but does its best to estimate the remaining capacity... had no idea those were 2 different things! Thanks!


3. 50kwh enter an empty battery. 45kwh leave the battery until it empties. You say hell yea Tesla should continue to report a consumption of 45kwh. I say Tesla should report 50kwh. If an owner can see those 50kwh using nothing more that the car's own BMS info, PLEASE don't say that it can be done, because that's just plain illogical!
They do report that number. It's available on the dashboard every time you charge the car, as you stated in your original post. It includes both charge and discharge efficiencies. You can make the argument that Tesla is not as transparent as they should be, but the number is available to those that want it.
 
They do report that number. It's available on the dashboard every time you charge the car, as you stated in your original post. It includes both charge and discharge efficiencies. You can make the argument that Tesla is not as transparent as they should be, but the number is available to those that want it.

They don't show that number where they should: in the consumption and in what Tesla calls Total Energy (which should be called Part of the Energy).

And, additionally, that number DOES NOT show you charge efficiency: you pull 55 from the wall, and 50 enter the battery. The car shows you the 50 at the end of the charging session. You NEVER see the 55 anywhere in any of the car's indicators. You can only see the 55 if you install an energy meter (like I and others have done)

Then, as soon as you disconnect your charger plug, the info regarding those 50 is gone for good. You'll never see that again, unless you connect to the canbus and look for the Lifetime Total Energy Added for the battery.

And then, you drive to empty, pulling 45 from the battery, and the car will only show you a consumption of 45, both in the Total Energy, and in the wh/mi indicator.

If you only look at the car's Total Energy and wh/mi indicator (like a normal person, not us geeks at TMC), you'll NEVER know you 50's and much less your 55's. You'll mistakenly think your car uses 45 to do X miles.

Like ICE cars evolved to the WLTP cycle, I'm certain some day EVs will be forced to show their users their real Total Energy consumption.
Until then, we'll have to live with a Partial Energy consumption indicator, which 5% of the users know omits charging inefficiency and vampire drain, and 0,01% of the users know that it also omits discharge inefficiencies.
 
I'm certain some day EVs will be forced to show their users their real Total Energy consumption.

I'm certain most that people will simply charge their cars off-peak or at work for free and continue to have no clue what a 'kWh' is, how much it costs or how many their car uses. All they'll know is it's A LOT cheaper than the gas-guzzler they traded in and they won't give it a second thought. IMO it's likely that EVs will eliminate the need for efficiency standards entirely. Range will be king and that alone is enough to provide a market signal for efficiency. A more efficient car can make better use of a smaller battery => it's more cost-effective. The selling point will be the 310 miles of range and the 130mpge will be ignored...

Drive more, worry less.
 
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If you only look at the car's Total Energy and wh/mi indicator (like a normal person, not us geeks at TMC), you'll NEVER know you 50's and much less your 55's. You'll mistakenly think your car uses 45 to do X miles.
Tesla does provide a spec for kWh/100 miles that includes all losses, including charging inefficiencies. For my car it is 33kWh/100 miles. Of course, that number only applies if you are using 1 rated mile for every driven mile, which most Tesla drivers don't achieve, at lease not on an average basis. But that is no different than people with ICE cars. The car has a spec for MPG, but most people don't really know what they are actually achieving.
 
..They don't show that number where they should: in the consumption and in what Tesla calls Total Energy (which should be called Part of the Energy)...
The energy meter displays the integral of the power flow out of the battery terminals since some starting point; a measureable (and useful) quantity that has high accuracy and depends on no assumptions.

You have a strong opinion about what the energy meter should display, even though that is not what it does display. It's not clear what exactly you want it to display, but it's something like the usable energy in the battery at some starting point minus the present usable energy in the battery. As has been pointed out, it's not possible to know what energy in the battery is usable because it can depend strongly on what you will do in the future which is unknowable. Will you tow a 5,000 lb trailer up a 5% grade, or will you sit in the car with the AC running listening to music?

At the same time you seem to be in some sort of dream world where ICE vehicles always accurately report their energy efficiency by measuring the BTU content in the fuel, precisely measuring the remaining fuel and conveniently displaying that to the user both in total energy terms and available mechanical energy based on a near perfect estimate of the future thermodynamic efficiency of the engine./S

You also seem to think that this is a conspiracy on Tesla's part to fool the user about their operating costs which is ridiculous. For any vehicle, you can only know your past operating costs and attempt to estimate future costs. The way to do it is the same for ICE and EV: add up the actual costs that you pay. You may or may not want to normalize this with respect to distance traveled to muddy the waters depending on if you are operating a police cruiser which spends most of its time parked but "running", or are a traveling salesman where your car is nearly always in motion or turned off. No car maker can hide this cost from you if you care to pay attention to it. For an EV, you may want to install a separate power service to have it billed separately if you really, really care about accuracy.

In the case of Tesla, if you're willing to purchase a phone app (and trust someone with a login token for your car), you can have a very good measure of the total energy drawn from the wall outlet for each and every recharge without any other equipment. It's still up to you to translate that into cost. You also have an odometer at your disposal should you want to know how far you've traveled.
 
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This whole (quite silly) argument is an unfortunate side effect of the shift of our measure of efficiency from miles per unit of volume (gallon) to miles per unit of energy (kWh).

Imagine getting all bent out of shape because your ICE vehicle doesn't correctly calculate and display the energy losses due to heat when burning gasoline. That would be absurd.

The fact that actual energy burn is hard to measure without a whole bunch of guessing might actually be a strong argument for getting rid of the energy consumption meter entirely and moving back to an ICE-like paradigm where you get an estimate of the percentage of how "full" the tank is and how many estimated miles of travel you have remaining based on some EPA-determined constant. If Tesla didn't provide this info at all nobody would be complaining about it.
 
To frame it another way, I meticulously tracked my fuel consumption back in the ICE days. It's well understood that the only way to get an accurate measure of consumption is to measure volume at the pump and divide by miles traveled.

Nothing changes in the EV world. If you want an accurate measure of consumption, you need to measure it as it goes IN. KWh at the meter divided by miles driven.
 
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That might explain a couple of threads complaining about charging higher than the set limit. Or was one of those yours?
I did a search with my user name and charging and could not find anything I created, but someone more talented may find a post I made about the subject. But I certainly don't remember creating a thread on it.:)

Also up until recently it was a suspicion of mine but I confirmed it twice in the last week.