Car and Driver Model 3 Test - Not Great

[sreams]

Why do you care about my goals in reading things? Do you ask these questions of people who heap praise on the Model 3?

No. Because people who are excited about things will gravitate toward forums related to those things. And people who have a more balanced perspective and would like to gather information or share positive/negative experiences with something they own or may potentially own will gravitate toward forums where they can do so.

The issue I have... and there at least a few in every forum on every topic... is with people who hover around forums with nothing but negative comments about the subject of those forums. It serves no purpose that I can see... apart from the cases where the participants are being paid to harm a brand that threatens other interests.

 

[sreams]

What exactly is these extra set of eyes seeing certainly not semi’s, fire trucks, or concrete barriers. So then AP is no different then the other driver assistant programs on other manufactures cars.

Who said it was different? All of these things enhance the driver's/car's ability to react to the world around them if they are used properly.

 

[erthquake]

These individual data points and opinions and assumptions don't add-up to Tesla having an advantage in drivetrain or manufacturing technology. Cost/kwh is irrelevant if its still money-losing. Battery production is a non-issue (BMW has already ramped to selling hundreds of thousands of electrified vehicles a year). BMW's reliability is high above the average and above Teslas, and BMW can achieve that reliability in huge volumes. Lastly, current models are not future models. Tesla needs to compete against the next generation of models like the i-Pace, iX3, Mini Electric, etc. Fully baked, high quality, high volume, mass-market vehicles.

I'm not arguing that Tesla will fail, but they won't succeed based on being better at designing drivetrains and assembling automobiles. Tesla knows this. Tesla's biggest advantages are its unique customer experience, the brand and their unburdened business model.

An "electrified vehicle" is a $htty ICE car and an even worse EV. Their batteries are small and can't be used as evidence that BMW battery production is a "non-issue."

And this article refutes your assertion that Tesla doesn't have a drivetrain advantage over BMW (and everyone else for that matter).

 

[nvx1977]

I know what I'm paying a premium for when I plunk down $56k for a Model 3. It isn't about the alcantara, stitched leather, or whatnot. It's the batteries. I agree that the interior luxuriousness of a $5000 PUP is not comparable to a traditional luxury car's premium package. But I place much more value on being able to power my car with the sun. And where Tesla shines is that in addition to being fully electric, it doesn't sacrifice on range or performance either.

 

[T34ME]

What exactly is these extra set of eyes seeing certainly not semi’s, fire trucks, or concrete barriers. So then AP is no different then the other driver assistant programs on other manufactures cars.

In this specific case, EAP did give ample warning that the driver was acting irresponsibly because EAP could not detect his hands on the steering wheel. I don't know if Tesla EAP is different than other driver assist programs on other cars because I haven't driven all the other cars with it; maybe yes, maybe no. I can say that EAP is different, better, and safer than the driver assist program on my current daily driver.

 

[techmaven]

For one, the base price of the 330e is substantially lower than the Model 3's.

The base price of the BMW 330e in the U.S. is $45,600. That's lower, but not substantially lower. But... comparing base prices is misleading. Add some basics like keyless entry, lumbar support, navigation, and heated front seats and the 330e is already more expensive. Go look at the prices for configured 330e's on various dealer lots. And that's before we get to the overall TCO which tilts in favor of the Model 3.

And why would it be a better comparison? The mass market that Tesla needs to address isn't on an EV "mission" like many Tesla fans. They need to be convinced on a cost/benefit basis. I guarantee you when regular car buyers step out of their Lexus, BMW or Merc and into a Model 3 in its current form, the first impression of the interior won't be good in most cases. In this and a few other aspects Tesla need to step up their game if they want to seriously compete in the mass market.

I've shown the Model 3 to quite a few people. While some people prefer:

other people quite like:

There is nothing wrong with the first choice. Conversely, there is nothing wrong with the 2nd choice. But right now, if you want the equivalent to the Tesla drivetrain, you have to have Tesla's interpretation of a modern interior. And the Model 3's interior is actually quite nice.

And as for mass market... have you seen the interiors of the competition? What passes for an interior for the Bolt?

This kind of thinking leads to complacency and is dangerous. I am very certain that BMW and several of the other big car makers are easily capable of making a car like the Model 3. It's just not profitable enough for them yet to put a lot of energy into it.

I don't think that anyone at Tesla has any illusions of the challenges in front of them. Complacency? Are you kidding me?

And no... BMW is not in a position to make the Model 3 today. Or next year. And if they truly wait for the time when it will be "profitable enough" it will be too late for the company.

 

[techmaven]

These individual data points and opinions and assumptions don't add-up to Tesla having an advantage in drivetrain or manufacturing technology. Cost/kwh is irrelevant if its still money-losing. Battery production is a non-issue (BMW has already ramped to selling hundreds of thousands of electrified vehicles a year). BMW's reliability is high above the average and above Teslas, and BMW can achieve that reliability in huge volumes. Lastly, current models are not future models. Tesla needs to compete against the next generation of models like the i-Pace, iX3, Mini Electric, etc. Fully baked, high quality, high volume, mass-market vehicles.

I'm not arguing that Tesla will fail, but they won't succeed based on being better at designing drivetrains and assembling automobiles. Tesla knows this. Tesla's biggest advantages are its unique customer experience, the brand and their unburdened business model.

I see. You are right. Ignore or dismiss all counter arguments and you win!

I could de-construct your flimsy arguments here, but I think it will fall on deaf ears. I find it hilarious that the I-Pace at 13k/units a year is high volume. And at $70k base price is mass-market. And the iX3 is fully baked given it won't launch until 2020 and it is currently 2018. And given the zero track record for BEVs from Jaguar combined with the historical reliability record of Jaguar and BMW, you consider these not yet to be shipping vehicles to have high quality. Hilarious, I tell you.

 

[T34ME]

What passes for an interior for the Bolt?

 

[Swampgator]

I would aslo add that Tesla does NOT need to compete against the next generation of BEVs.
Tesla competes against the best ICE cars in each category, and will continue to take market share from ICE.

 

[voip-ninja]

Buy the Audi, forget about Tesla, leave this forum, everyone happy

Well, I'm considering the Model-3 still so you'll have to endure me a bit further.

Besides, I've been here for nearly six years now, I'm completely inoculated against the Jones-esque kool-aid drinking cultists that can't tolerate dissent..

 

[dhrivnak]

And no... BMW is not in a position to make the Model 3 today. Or next year. And if they truly wait for the time when it will be "profitable enough" it will be too late for the company.

How true. Having worked for Kodak in the 1980’s and 90’s I saw firsthand how a company could miss a huge market swing. Kodak went from something like $20 billion in sales, record profits and total market domination to bankruptcy in 10 short years as they never really believed digital photography could be better than film.

 

[Waiting4M3]

Well, I'm considering the Model-3 still so you'll have to endure me a bit further.

Besides, I've been here for nearly six years now, I'm completely inoculated against the Jones-esque kool-aid drinking cultists that can't tolerate dissent..

Wow, 6 years, why?

 

[voip-ninja]

Wow, 6 years, why?

Why do you have 2417 posts in less than 2 years, WHY?

I joined when I briefly considered a model S pre-order and have been here off and on ever since.

 

[AviP]

No, it’s a design flaw. Relying on the driver to override AutoPilot from driving into a highway barrier is a design flaw. AutoPilot shouldn’t be trying to drive into the highway barrier in the first place.

+1. Beta Pilot is more work than help. It's like me teaching my teenager to learn to drive. I've got to be look at everything as if I'm driving, then diagnose what he is interpreting and them make adjustments / shout them out to him. To anybody here who has taught a teenager, how is Beta Pilot any different. It's a lot of work and saying it's not means you might be lulled into believing it actually works until a special situation occurs. It did not detect an obstruction in the road that is the width of 2 small children in the roadway. Eon Musk is selling it ahead of it's time.

 

[seattlite2004]

Still too much "stuff" in that picture...Mod 3 is more like the following:

 

[McRat]

...
And no... BMW is not in a position to make the Model 3 today. Or next year. And if they truly wait for the time when it will be "profitable enough" it will be too late for the company.

Not big BMW fan, but this scenario is unlikely. That is, any successful automaker who doesn't immediately invest heavily in EVs immediately is forever doomed.

BMW who has made a real EV that is arguably more advanced and better designed for it's application than other current efforts is somehow in a better position for it's 'long-term corporate survival' because it has had an EV program for 7 years and a well-engineered EV. This is assuming those who aren't selling an advanced EV today are doomed. I don't buy it. I think Toyota or VW could have turned on the spigot in 2010 if it made financial sense, ie - the demand would allow pricing that covered costs and profits.

BMW's EV, dedicated design, i3s -
Correct sized battery for commuting, 118 miles EPA is enough to cover the lion's share of commuters, even in the winter.
Plan B tech. EREV available for local regions that lack infrastructure or commuters who need more range.
Lightweight design. 3005lb (2961lb stripped) with 0-60mph @ 6.8s. 900lb lighter than a Model 3 by use advanced chassis engineering, and right sizing the driveline and car.
Correct sized car for commuters who must park their cars in limited space. 158" x 75", 4 seats. (Model 3 is 27" longer)
Battery is only 33kWh. More cars per MWh.

For the minority of car drivers who mainly have 1 car per family, do not park or drive in a congested city, and use their car primarily for long trips, the Model 3 is the superior car from a functional standpoint. But demographically speaking, the i3 is the car who's engineering is a closer match to how actual people drive in the real world.

Would I want to buy one? Not no, but HELL no. For my 'needs' is the i3 superior? Yup. Do I want a Model 3 instead of an i3? Hell yes. However my EV needs are met by 9-10 year old technology.

The i3 shows what BMW engineers are capable of circa 2011, with a retail release in 2013. Automakers seldom stop all work for 7 years on product. Possible? Not likely.

Does that give them an advantage over companies who have not made a clean sheet EV yet? No. The technology is available off-the-shelf today with multiple vendors. They all have an engineering structure that allows continuous chassis improvement and design, so it's just EV components that are lacking which are commonly vendor items. All have experience with EV design for demonstration designs.

But when it comes down to chassis and parts: Could BMW make a metal mid-sized sedan with EV power if they started 3 years ago? It's likely. Could Tesla put a carbon-fiber 3000lb EV with a range extender in their showrooms 5 years ago? Unlikely.

 

[voip-ninja]

Not big BMW fan, but this scenario is unlikely.

BMW who has made a real EV that is arguably more advanced and better designed for it's application is in a better position for it's 'survival' assuming those who aren't selling an advanced EV today are doomed. I don't buy it. I think Toyota or VW could have turned on the spigot in 2010 if it made financial sense, ie - the demand would allow pricing that covered costs and profits.

BMW's EV, dedicated design, i3s -
Correct sized battery for commuting, 118 miles EPA is enough to cover the lion's share of commuters, even in the winter.
Plan B tech. EREV available for local regions that lack infrastructure or commuters who need more range.
Lightweight design. 3005lb (2961lb stripped) with 0-60mph @ 6.8s. 900lb lighter than a Model 3 by use advanced chassis engineering, and right sizing the driveline and car.
Correct sized car for commuters who must park their cars in limited space. 158" x 75", 4 seats. (Model 3 is 27" longer)
Battery is only 33kWh. More cars per MWh.

For the minority of car drivers who mainly have 1 car per family, do not park or drive in a congested city, and use their car primarily for long trips, the Model 3 is the superior car from a functional standpoint. But demographically speaking, the i3 is the car who's engineering is a closer match to how actual people drive in the real world.

Would I want to buy one? Not no, but HELL no. For my 'needs' is the i3 superior? Yup. Do I want a Model 3 instead of an i3? Hell yes. However my EV needs are met by 9-10 year old technology.

The i3 shows what BMW engineers are capable of circa 2011, with a retail release in 2013. Automakers seldom stop all work for 7 years on product. Possible? Not likely.

Does that give them an advantage over companies who have not made a clean sheet EV yet? No. The technology is available off-the-shelf today with multiple vendors. They all have an engineering structure that allows continuous chassis improvement and design, so it's just EV components that are lacking which are commonly vendor items. All have experience with EV design for demonstration designs.

But when it comes down to chassis and parts: Could BMW make a metal mid-sized sedan with EV power if they started 3 years ago? It's likely. Could Tesla put a carbon-fiber 3000lb EV with a range extender in their showrooms 5 years ago? Unlikely.

The chance that BMW isn't working on electrified version of new release cars is zero. We already know that a plug-in version of the BMW G30 chassis car is in the works.

How much "worse" will it be than a car that was designed from the ground up for EV only application? Time will tell. Undoubtedly Tesla has a big advantage here as they aren't anchored by trying to design chassis to support two power delivery applications. On the other hand BMW chassis design and ability to solve mechanical problems (like squeezing electric drive-train into dual purpose chassis) is unparalleled.... so we'll just have to see what they can do.

Tesla supercharger is still an enormous advantage in the US and Canada... at least for those consumers who can't charge at home and who will use the car for long distance travel. I think a lot of Model 3 buyers will still use an ICE car for their long distance travel.

 

[Swampgator]

Yes and let's not forget nobody, aside from Tesla, has enough battery capacity to produce appreciable numbers of BEVs. BMW sure does not. Jaguar? Nope. Mercedes has made some big investments but they are still a few years out from completion. Tesla even may struggle they have not been able to complete the gigafactory and as we have seen the delays in them producing Model 3s at a high rate have been mostly on the battery side.

 

[McRat]

...

Tesla supercharger is still an enormous advantage in the US and Canada... at least for those consumers who can't charge at home and who will use the car for long distance travel. I think a lot of Model 3 buyers will still use an ICE car for their long distance travel.

The SuperCharger network is excellent marketing, but does not affect most of the world's drivers, even where EV adoption is heavy, and the SCN exists. Most EVs on the road and sold globally do not have DCFC ability or long range.

To paraphase what you said, it's a huge advantage for people who have no choice but to buy a BEV and must travel far in it. This is not a huge portion of the 220,000,000 US drivers, and even less in other countries.

 

[cella]

Still too much "stuff" in that picture...Mod 3 is more like the following:

Hm, the Model 3 reminds me more of this: