Car and Driver suffers Model 3 failure on 12/25, but car told them about it remotely

[SouthSeas]

What you're asking for is a practical impossibility. Every time someone posts a problem, someone will say that it's just 1 example out of many other cars with NO problem. Then someone will say let's see how many problem cars there are, compared to no-problem cars. How in the world can someone compile this statistic? We can't just brush off an issue by saying "oh that's just a single example", it's statistically insignificant. When your car dies on you after 5000 miles, it's not insignificant. When you get a warning that the car is about to shut down, just a few miles from a supercharger stating, when the range meter clearly shows there's more than enough range left to get there, that's not insignificant.

In the end, all we can do is gather info from what we're seeing on this forum, and from friends/aquaintances and form our own opinions.

Or use information from sources that gather info like Consumers Report.

Improved reliability reports from owners of the Model 3 and the Model S were enough to convince Consumer Reports to once again recommend both vehicles as reliable, a designation the organization pulled last year.

Overall, the Tesla brand jumped four spots in the latest Consumer Reports reliability survey, which is based on the reviews from owners of more than 400,000 vehicles. This year, Lexus was rated as the top brand for reliability, followed by Mazda and Toyota.

Tesla still ranks in the bottom third of the 30 auto brands rated by Consumer Reports, which said the Tesla Model X is among the least reliable models in the survey.

Bottom third! That's impressive and speaks volumes.

Consumer Reports puts Tesla back on recommended list as reliability improves

 

[Apprunner]

Or use information from sources that gather info like Consumers Report.



Bottom third! That's impressive and speaks volumes.

Consumer Reports puts Tesla back on recommended list as reliability improves

Devils in the details. The Model X is driving the overall reliability down. The Model 3 actually did okay (5 out of 12) in terms of reliability in the segment. I believe the Model S isn’t all that stellar either.

 

[Zcd1]

Or use information from sources that gather info like Consumers Report.

The Model 3 is on their recommended list, which the salient point for this conversation.

 

[SouthSeas]

Devils in the details. The Model X is driving the overall reliability down. The Model 3 actually did okay (5 out of 12) in terms of reliability in the segment. I believe the Model S isn’t all that stellar either.

Are you picking on my X? Not sure how much the X can bring down the average since they have been sold in fairly small numbers compared to the 3. They deliver less than 10,000 a quarter of model X and 8 times that many model 3s. I believe the model 3 is more than half the total production of all Tesla vehicles.

 

[Apprunner]

Are you picking on my X? Not sure how much the X can bring down the average since they have been sold in fairly small numbers compared to the 3. They deliver less than 10,000 a quarter of model X and 8 times that many model 3s. I believe the model 3 is more than half the total production of all Tesla vehicles.

Consumer reports is wacky for sure. They completely lambaste the X and say the Model 3 has above average/average reliability. They also say the Model S reliability isn't great so that doesn't help. I can't figure out why they are bottom 3rd when most of their cars sold are 3s. I'm just reporting on what I read.

 

[rickdogg82]

When I went to get my two previous Mercedes serviced. I had to ask for a loaner. Why didn't C&D ask for one?

 

[drtimhill]

Consumer reports is wacky for sure. They completely lambaste the X and say the Model 3 has above average/average reliability. They also say the Model S reliability isn't great so that doesn't help. I can't figure out why they are bottom 3rd when most of their cars sold are 3s. I'm just reporting on what I read.

The basic problem imho is CR hasn't really adjusted their testing/reporting methodology to account for EVs, and in particular software-heavy EVs like the Tesla (I know, I've been filing annual CR reliability surveys for decades). The result is that many minor issues with the Model 3 get classified as major in the survey, which skews the results downward. An example is how to classify AP? Its beta, so should it even be included? How does the average Tesla driver classify an AP failure? Major? Minor? CR gives no guidance on this, and so its GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) for some of their reported findings. I dont think they are being deliberately biased, but they are perhaps rather out of date.

 

[afadeev]

When I went to get my two previous Mercedes serviced. I had to ask for a loaner. Why didn't C&D ask for one?

From whom?
Have you tried calling a Tesla Service Center lately, to ask about anything?
Their official policy is to NOT pick-up the phone anymore!
Talking to the 3rd party tow-tuck driver would not accomplish much.

Tesla forces you to use the app for everything, including scheduling SC visits.
My OTA software update a few versions ago had failed, disabling all safety features (TACC, AS, AP, speed limit info, etc). Rebooting didn't help. I was prompted to schedule an appointment. The next one available is in 30+ days.

Just peachy.

a

P.S.: When I take my BMW for service, I call ahead to schedule an appointment and secure a free loaner, then arrive and everything is ready for me. However, BMW and MB have full-time dealers to take care of their customers. Tesla doesn't.
P.P.S.: Cutting out dealers from the vehicle distribution model comes with unintended costs and consequences, and post-sales customer (dis-)service is one of those.

 

[afadeev]

Consumer reports is wacky for sure. They completely lambaste the X and say the Model 3 has above average/average reliability. They also say the Model S reliability isn't great so that doesn't help.

Seams like pretty astute and reasonable observations: some models are more reliable (M3) than others (MX). MS is in the middle.

Scores are based on statistical sampling of CR readers, in other words, real world experience with the vehicles.
Reading the latest Brand report, Tesla is #23, up 4 from the last year.
Model X score = 15 (higher is better). Issues reported: in-car electronics, driver system, body hardware. Flaky gull-wing doors with, anyone?
Model 3 score = 59 (higher is better)
Tesla brand average score = 39

The basic problem imho is CR hasn't really adjusted their testing/reporting methodology to account for EVs, and in particular software-heavy EVs like the Tesla (I know, I've been filing annual CR reliability surveys for decades). The result is that many minor issues with the Model 3 get classified as major in the survey, which skews the results downward. An example is how to classify AP?

The reliability reports are based on reader's direct feedback. Whether something works, or doesn't work, it is a pretty deterministic. Regardless of vehicle drive train (gas, diesel, hybrid, or electric).

Good luck categorizing AP under "minor" features.
When AP computer, or one of its sensors, go down (mine just took a dump), it takes out all driver aid features with it: cruise control (TACC), auto steer, lane assist, speed assist, collision avoidance, speed limit notifications - everything. Add constant ongoing nags to schedule a service center appointment. That is a pretty MAJOR disruption to my driver experience, I can tell you that with certainty!

That will also be included in my annual survey for CR.

Its beta, so should it even be included? How does the average Tesla driver classify an AP failure? Major? Minor?

Call AutoPilot "Beta" does not relieve Tesla of the responsibility to make it work properly.
They did not take "Beta" $$$ from me to sell me that feature, so regardless of how they label it (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, v1, v2, v3, v69), it better work properly.

If it cost $$$$, and if it quits working, it's major.
Full stop.
Until such a time when Tesla refunds us for the features that it sold that are not working as advertised, or mis-advertised. Then it has a chance of becoming "minor". That probability of that refund happening is ~0.000000001, so it's "major".

I can't figure out why they are bottom 3rd when most of their cars sold are 3s. I'm just reporting on what I read.

Probably because Model 3's score (59) is not particularly high, either.
Lexus, Mazda, and Toyota, all have models rated in high 90's.
That high 90s are what the entire automotive industry is envying, and shooting for.
Hopefully, so does Tesla, and that they will make progress climbing the reliability ladder in the future years.

That would be the best for all of us, the vehicle owners!

I dont think they are being deliberately biased, but they are perhaps rather out of date.

I think CR is 100% on the money with the statistical reliability reporting.

I also think we, the Tesla owners, should quit making excuses for Tesla's deficiencies, and focus our energy on pushing the company to up its game in reliability and post-sales customer support experience.

a

 

[drtimhill]

I also think we, the Tesla owners, should quit making excuses for Tesla's deficiencies, and focus our energy on pushing the company to up its game in reliability and post-sales customer support experience.

I'm not making excuses for Tesla .. I think Tesla should (and in fact MUST) continue to push for more reliability, better build quality, and better customer service. Areas where they are weak compared to other makers. Dont mistake speculation on WHY something is broken as excusing it.

What I AM saying, is that the methodology by which CR gather the customer data needs revising given the significant differences between traditional ICE cars and newer EVs. I dont doubt that the statistics are professionally handled and accurate, but have you seen the CR survey? It basically lets users decide what is major and minor its very ambiguous. And by your very post, which classifies an early beta of a feature as major, you are skewing the statistics. Basically, you are saying that a car WITHOUT autopilot is better than a car WITH it .. is that your intent? Because that's how it will show up if everyone follows your argument.

 

[focher]

In the end, all we can do is gather info from what we're seeing on this forum, and from friends/aquaintances and form our own opinions.

No and no. If you go through life just by anecdotal information, that's your choice but data is collected about innumerable things including automobile model reliability. We absolutely know that the Model 3 does not have a high drive unit failure rate. That's just fact.

 

[Skotty]

Tesla fan-boy's response: "Wow, this is so cool, your Tesla messaged you over the air to get service. And dispatched a tow-truck on top. Tesla rocks!"

Everyone else: "WTF - your $50+K car left you stranded after only 5K miles on the odometer! And no loaner on top. Tesla sucks!"

a

One instance doesn't really mean much. I've had to have a new car towed back to the dealership where I bought it with only about 50 miles on it (not a Tesla).

 

[drtimhill]

No and no. If you go through life just by anecdotal information, that's your choice but data is collected about innumerable things including automobile model reliability. We absolutely know that the Model 3 does not have a high drive unit failure rate. That's just fact.

Exactly. You CAN make bad choices from good data, but you can NEVER make good choices from bad data.

 

[toolman335]

From whom?
Have you tried calling a Tesla Service Center lately, to ask about anything?
Their official policy is to NOT pick-up the phone anymore!
Talking to the 3rd party tow-tuck driver would not accomplish much.

Tesla forces you to use the app for everything, including scheduling SC visits.
My OTA software update a few versions ago had failed, disabling all safety features (TACC, AS, AP, speed limit info, etc). Rebooting didn't help. I was prompted to schedule an appointment. The next one available is in 30+ days.

Just peachy.

a

P.S.: When I take my BMW for service, I call ahead to schedule an appointment and secure a free loaner, then arrive and everything is ready for me. However, BMW and MB have full-time dealers to take care of their customers. Tesla doesn't.
P.P.S.: Cutting out dealers from the vehicle distribution model comes with unintended costs and consequences, and post-sales customer (dis-)service is one of those.

My previous car was a BMW. How much notice did you have to give them to get a loaner? If I wanted a loaner they required 3-4 weeks notice. Boy, does that sound familiar? On top of that, it was extremely expensive to maintain the vehicle. I'm talking about basic maintenance work, as well as repairs. Tesla's cost almost nothing to maintain, but obviously they're expensive to fix(hmmm, like any other luxury brand out there).
When my 4 year old BMW required a $4,000 tab in September I traded it into Tesla and become one of the happiest people around!

 

[Probllama]

Our Tesla Model 3 Is Up and Running Again after Sudden Breakdown

I hope this is how all Tesla customers get taken care of, not just C/D.

 

[holmgang]

And by your very post, which classifies an early beta of a feature as major, you are skewing the statistics. Basically, you are saying that a car WITHOUT autopilot is better than a car WITH it .. is that your intent? Because that's how it will show up if everyone follows your argument.

Autopilot is a major selling point of Tesla (its so advanced, its so safe, look at the accident rates, etc etc etc).
Tesla markets it. Its owners tout it. It's heavily used.

So if it fails, excluding it from statistics with the disclaimer "but the manual says its beta!" is an attempt at skew...

 

[TheLocNar]

People making excuses for Tesla will be the first to say Porsche is TEH WÜRST!!!!!!!! if this ever happens to a Taycan.

 

[dmurphy]

One instance doesn't really mean much. I've had to have a new car towed back to the dealership where I bought it with only about 50 miles on it (not a Tesla).

... exactly! “Stuff” happens. How you react to it is what matters.

Vehicle proactively reported the issue. Tow truck dispatched within 1/2 hour. Rental car provided. Vehicle fixed in a few days, during a holiday week.

Sounds totally like a totally reasonable experience to me. Certainly not a customer support “fail” by any measure.

 

[tvad]

My previous car was a BMW. How much notice did you have to give them to get a loaner? If I wanted a loaner they required 3-4 weeks notice. Boy, does that sound familiar? On top of that, it was extremely expensive to maintain the vehicle. I'm talking about basic maintenance work, as well as repairs. Tesla's cost almost nothing to maintain, but obviously they're expensive to fix(hmmm, like any other luxury brand out there).
When my 4 year old BMW required a $4,000 tab in September I traded it into Tesla and become one of the happiest people around!

Sounds familiar. Our 6 year old BMW required a new AC condenser and motor mounts. A 6 year old car!

Ridiculous.

We dumped it and bought the Model 3.

And yes, to obtain a loaner sometimes required an advance appointment, but because we were longtime customers of our preferred dealership, it often was only a day or two.

 

[toolman335]

Sounds familiar. Our 6 year old BMW required a new AC condenser and motor mounts. A 6 year old car!

Ridiculous.

We dumped it and bought the Model 3.

And yes, to obtain a loaner sometimes required an advance appointment, but because we were longtime customers of our preferred dealership, it often was only a day or two.

My dealer is the only one around, so they were chronically short-staffed and short on cars. I loved the car, but the cost of owning it was insane.
I see some chatter about rental cars working their way in this thread. There's a huge difference between a rental vs loaner. Anyone can get set up immediately with a rental.