Car & Driver: The Mach E is simply better than the Model Y

[BrownOuttaSpec]

So what are they limiting by software - Fast DC charging or fast driving? This is either a design error or a poorly made part since it is subject to being weld closed or significant deformation. The software correction is a poor work around.

"On affected vehicles, Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat. Overheating may lead to arcing and deformation of the electrical contact surfaces, which can result in a contactor that remains open or a contactor that welds closed. An overheated contactor that opens while driving can result in a loss of motive power, which can increase the risk of an accident."

Ah, so that's why they limit full power for only 5 seconds. Sounds like they knew about this problem years ago and was hoping to sweep it under the rug. Oops! Sounds familiar though... hmmmm.....

Narrator : [20:35] A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Woman on Plane : Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator : You wouldn't believe.
Woman on Plane : Which car company do you work for?
Narrator : A major one.

 

[RobDickinson]

Ah, so that's why they limit full power for only 5 seconds.

No, thats an entirely separate, unconnected, thermal issue down to the buss bar sizes in the pack

 

[chinney]

Though, in general, thermal management does not appear to the MME's strong suit.

 

[Earl]

Which will come first?

• MachE hardware fix
• Tesla Robotaxis

I hardly think we can put the 2 in the same category and we need to put our tribalism aside. The world needs the MachE now. Robotaxis and FSD are very nice to have but hardly needed.
I sincerely hope that Ford can get their act together and actually solve the MachE problem.
It would definitely be nice if Tesla could solve the FSD problem for Robotaxis as I've got a Model 3 I'd love to put into service.

 

[RobDickinson]

I think the Mache Cells could be better used by other companies making better more efficient and reliable EVs

 

[EVer Hopeful]

we need to put our tribalism aside

Agreed. It's a little like the Army and the Air Force squabbling when they're both there to fight the same enemy

 

[RobDickinson]

Its like the Air force is fighting the enemy

and the Army is buys building multiple v8 tanks for the opposition.

 

[john5520]

I hardly think we can put the 2 in the same category and we need to put our tribalism aside. The world needs the MachE now. Robotaxis and FSD are very nice to have but hardly needed.
I sincerely hope that Ford can get their act together and actually solve the MachE problem.
It would definitely be nice if Tesla could solve the FSD problem for Robotaxis as I've got a Model 3 I'd love to put into service.

If I read the recent sales numbers right, KIA is close to matching the Mach-E in sales or might have beaten Ford. IMO, we don't need the Mach-E. Let's see how the Lightning does. If it turns out to be much better, I'll give credit where it's due.

 

[RobDickinson]

Lightning will be the same cells, inverter, motors etc repackaged for a truck.

 

[lolachampcar]

So what are they limiting by software - Fast DC charging or fast driving? This is either a design error or a poorly made part since it is subject to being weld closed or significant deformation. The software correction is a poor work around.

"On affected vehicles, Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat. Overheating may lead to arcing and deformation of the electrical contact surfaces, which can result in a contactor that remains open or a contactor that welds closed. An overheated contactor that opens while driving can result in a loss of motive power, which can increase the risk of an accident."

I've not done the research myself so I'm responding only to the above.......
This seems somehow so familiar. BeV manufacturer provides tooooooo much current related performance then has to modify the software to reduce current and "save" the under designed hardware. I vividly remember having a certain performance Model S where a software update came out that just reduced current draw from the battery without saying boo to owners that had specifically purchased the car for its performance. Theories ranged from contactor to bonding wire fatigue and failure but the underlying concept was the same. Ship it with a certain level of performance, figure out you nerf'd the longevity testing and then claw back the performance to cover you butt instead of dealing with the warranty liability.

It seems in this case that the mistake is sufficient enough to be a safety issue and thus Ford's dirty laundry is out in the open.

But, before we get all high and mighty here at team T, let's not forget our own history with such things including even having to move to GigaVac contactors because the original spec'd units were failing.

This stuff is hard. There is a learning curve. Tesla's engineering is better when judged from an end result perspective. Tesla does not push their design off on vendors to the same degree. Tesla's culture is different in both their willingness to take risk and a willingness to let their design teams push the envelope. I see all of this as good (apart from the burning out of the team in a constant start up mode approach) but there is risk and there are hiccups that come with anyone blazing this trail.

 

[lolachampcar]

Though, in general, thermal management does not appear to the MME's strong suit.

Just like Tesla in the beginning. My fist MS laid down quickly. My second pulled harder longer. This last one is an absolute nut job straight through 150 mph. Let's give Ford three tries and see where we are.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

Wait, I think the original article was misquoted in the title of this thread

Car & Driver: The Mach E is simply better than the Model Y​

should have been

Car & Driver: The Mach E better than the Model Y if you're a simpleton​

 

[Bouba]

Interesting how some are allowed to slow their battery devices but others aren’t...

Apple battery lawsuit: Millions of iPhone users could get payouts in legal action

The tech giant is accused of secretly slowing down the performance of older models.

www.bbc.com

 

[john5520]

Just like Tesla in the beginning. My fist MS laid down quickly. My second pulled harder longer. This last one is an absolute nut job straight through 150 mph. Let's give Ford three tries and see where we are.

You were still able to drive your Model S weren't you? Ford's problem leaves the owner stranded and can happen at any time. And correct me if I'm wrong, the Model S battery issue took years to develop. Ford had to have known there was an issue from early on as owners reported it for at least a year.

I agree that this is Ford's first performance EV that they designed with competing in mind, however, they had other EVs to use as reference. Tesla had to pretty much start from scratch.

 

[Mingw]

If you prefer the MME, from what you wrote, you should sell the MYP. You'll probably come out with a profit.

All BEVs are supply restrained. It's not this or the other, but whether you can get hold of one, anyone. I can't even put down an order for MME now, so will at least live with it for a while.

In the meanwhile, MYP is way faster than my MME (slower version, not GT).

 

[Earl]

we don't need the Mach-E.

We need them all.
I'm not particularly happy with any of them produced in places where racism and other practices create a pool of people desperate enough to work for sub-standard wages. This, of course, includes the MachE and Kia, but, while I probably won't buy one myself, I'll only disparage them a bit - and only for those practices.

 

[chinney]

Just like Tesla in the beginning. My fist MS laid down quickly. My second pulled harder longer. This last one is an absolute nut job straight through 150 mph. Let's give Ford three tries and see where we are.

I think that is a fair comment, in part. But, adding to what others have said, I note that the original premise of this thread was "The Mach E is Simply Better than the Model Y", not "Let's Give Ford Two More Tries and See if the Mach E Will Be as Good as the Model Y".

More fundamentally, the EV universe has moved on from where it was in the early years of the Model S (next week will be the 10th anniversary of its release!). It was still something of an experiment at the time. While EV technology is still developing - and I do think that it will get better still and hopefully more affordable - the EV drivetrain has proven itself to be capable of being basically reliable, even very reliable. Customers legitimately have greater expectations of it now. Ford could have and should have done better with the Mach E, even if that meant waiting a bit more to further develop and refine their technology. And I say that not as a Ford hater, but as a longtime and mostly-happy past Ford owner.

 

[Ohmster]

I agree that this is Ford's first performance EV that they designed with competing in mind, however, they had other EVs to use as reference. Tesla had to pretty much start from scratch.

Had to highlight the funny word that made me giggle a bit. At least in the MME’s current guise. Not a Ford hater either, we had a Fusion Hybrid and an Explorer prior to the switch to Teslas in ‘17. Also had my eye on the GT.

 

[thesmokingman]

We need them all.

Sure fundamentally I would concur.

However what we don't need are half assed attempts and trolling from these half assed companies. Take Ford who makes jabs at Tesla all day long, pays money to have pointed titles declaring Ford as reigning supreme. And this is just Ford. They should all just stick to making a competent EV and let the chips fall where they may.

Anyways someone linked the nhsta recall doc and it isn't pretty.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2022/RCLRPT-22V412-2331.PDF

 

[alexgr]

Anyways someone linked the nhsta recall doc and it isn't pretty.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2022/RCLRPT-22V412-2331.PDF

"Description of the Cause : The design and part-to-part variation of the high voltage battery main contactor is not robust to the heat generated during DC fast charging and multiple wide open pedal events."
How the heck the software update is a fix to an electrical design problem? I don't see it being a fix other than they just reduce the charging power/speed and performance of the car.
Also note that they already had 280+ warranty claims out of about 50000 cars sold, which is more than 0.5%. This is a huge failure rate for a major problem like that.