One thing I've learned from reading these forums is that the consensus is that "performance" is taken to mean drag strip times. However, that's not the kind of performance I'm interested in, but rather things like road feel, grip around turns, agility and endurance. Those attributes are among those that inspire confidence and make driving "fun". While the Tesla has some degree of those performance-related attributes, they are no where near competitive with performance ICE offerings. But that will eventually change due to technological advances in battery weight and thermal management. At that point in time, it may well be that the only "excuse" not to get an EV over an ICE is because you want to hear an exhaust note.
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SDRick
Active Member
What you say is true but for every day urban driving I do not find anything faster, more efficient and fun than my model S at anything up to quasi "legal" speeds. No one seems to be able to keep up no matter what they are driving. If someone tries, it is with a lot of effort, a lot of racket and they really have to work it to maybe keep up. On a track, or perhaps rural twisties, different story.
My P85 on Michelin all seasons won't hold a candle to the Chevy SS(stock summer only tires) it replaced when going around corners, BUT the P85D loaner I had on 21" UHP rubber would be close at least on sweepers the weight would pose a challenge but still will handle better than 4700lbs should.
I had a 1992 Buick Roadmaster until I got my Model S last year. It had a 5.7L, but it was more geared for towing than acceleration. I think it was around 6s 0-60. The 92 also had the 3/4 ton pickup engine, not the Corvette engine. It was a great car for its day.
Im a car guy too, Always had to have RWD and Manual transmission. Test drove the S60 and fell in love, Its the slowest tesla and its damn fast, scary fast 20-60. My two ...wait three biggest objections to automatic transmissions was there shifting at the absolute wrong time, lag from when YOU decide to nail it and when it actually goes, and the lack of engine braking that a manual transmission gives. EV's ditch all that. I experience 0 range anxiety, thought I would but nah 80 ile round trip commute is pretty simple, one long trip to Yosemite was awesome (no altitude effect!!)
The cons?
Its a 4500 lb car that does a pretty good job in the twisties but I have a feeling when it lets go there would be no recovery (need a track day and a track located supercharger to confirm this!).
Some of the interior panel trims are ill fitting
For some reason Elon refuses to integrate simple phone based stuff into the vehicle (read texts, respond to texts voice and email reading)
Sound system is mediocre and the upgraded system is ridiculously overpriced
The cons?
Its a 4500 lb car that does a pretty good job in the twisties but I have a feeling when it lets go there would be no recovery (need a track day and a track located supercharger to confirm this!).
Some of the interior panel trims are ill fitting
For some reason Elon refuses to integrate simple phone based stuff into the vehicle (read texts, respond to texts voice and email reading)
Sound system is mediocre and the upgraded system is ridiculously overpriced
Seems to me that you need to find a nice gently used Roadster to take out on the weekends. It even has a slight power train whine as you accelerate, that's a surprisingly effective replacement for the sound of an ICE. There's a great feeling as you blow effortlessly through the audio clues where your brain tells you that you need to shift gears, as you continue to accelerate. Why drive a car that sounds like a chain saw when you can drive one that sounds like the Jetson's?
12Pack
Member
Thanks, Did actually initially want the roadster for the daily driver, replacing a Range Rover which we didn't really need. But then went for the Model S. Indeed the roadster is a wonderful thing, but I already had a performance/track car (which is a rocket from 40-160mph and pulls well over 1g around corners) where the roadster really can't play. So, went for the coolness of the Model S with all its extra room.
Of course the the ICE performance car is old tech, but it sounds wonderful, balances beautifully on the edge, pulls so hard even well above 100mph, and doesn't flash battery overheat warnings. Horses for courses.
Of course the the ICE performance car is old tech, but it sounds wonderful, balances beautifully on the edge, pulls so hard even well above 100mph, and doesn't flash battery overheat warnings. Horses for courses.
So in other words, to be good EV ambassadors, we should race other fast (but ultimately never fast enough) cars.
I agree.
Performance of P85D with Ludicrous upgrade review
WhiskySTL
Member
OP, I don't have any real advice for you (other than to second the suggestions to go test-drive an S), but I can commiserate and am going through a similar dilemma.
I'm currently driving a BMW 335i with the M Sport package, 19" wheels, sapphire black... I love my car. Driving it is among the best parts of my day, every day. I look forward to my 40-min commute each morning - if somewhat less so in the evening due to traffic (points there for Tesla's EAP). Just spotting it in the parking lot literally makes me smile. It's beautiful and fast and handles wonderfully and makes the most lovely sound when I start the engine (or floor it). I even love the frustrated sound the engine makes if I floor it up a highway on-ramp and then abruptly let off the gas upon reaching ~70mph in order to merge at a semi-rational speed, and the RPMs plummet and the car's like, "What?! I was just getting started..."
This car's a lease, and the lease is up in January. Before I remembered that this was the year of the Model 3, I had decided that I would buy the 335 at lease-end if I could get a reasonable deal - or else buy a CPO 335 or move to a new 340.
In June, I realized that the 3 was coming. As a long-time Tesla fan (who's occasionally been tempted by the S but could never rationalize the $$) I decided to reserve one. (As an ironic side note, I had seriously debated reserving one on 3/31/16, but I thought that the 3's production release + my BMW lease end would never align... As it turns out, it would have been absolutely perfect timing.) My Model 3 reservation is due in the Apr-Jun 2018 window. My current plan is to patchwork together a short-term solution for transportation between January (lease end) and Apr/Jun, get rides, borrow a car from a family member, work from home, etc, until my Model 3 delivers.
However...... Lately, I have been having second thoughts. I think it's just the way my car makes me smile every day... and comparing that against the unknown that is the 3.
I have driven an S. It's pretty cool. It feels like the future. I very much enjoyed it, although it was a friend's loaner (his was in for service) so I didn't feel at liberty to really floor it and experience its full power. Nonetheless, I found a certain sterility to the driving experience.
As if put there just to tempt me, I've recently discovered a 2017 340xi with a 6-speed transmission at a local dealership. Although manual transmissions are offered on the 3-series, they're virtually never found in inventory, and my desire to get a deal whenever possible has always precluded me from custom-ordering a 3-series (I seriously wonder if someone ordered the car & then backed out). Before the Model 3 came along... this would've been my ideal car. Now I am torn.
Long story short, I'm having a bit of a crisis. Like you, I don't want to make the switch and then find that I miss the visceral joy of the high-performing ICE. Current plan is... I want to go test-drive an S... ideally even see if they'll let me do an overnight so I can get the full experience. Then maybe go test-drive that 340xi w/6-speed.
I'm currently driving a BMW 335i with the M Sport package, 19" wheels, sapphire black... I love my car. Driving it is among the best parts of my day, every day. I look forward to my 40-min commute each morning - if somewhat less so in the evening due to traffic (points there for Tesla's EAP). Just spotting it in the parking lot literally makes me smile. It's beautiful and fast and handles wonderfully and makes the most lovely sound when I start the engine (or floor it). I even love the frustrated sound the engine makes if I floor it up a highway on-ramp and then abruptly let off the gas upon reaching ~70mph in order to merge at a semi-rational speed, and the RPMs plummet and the car's like, "What?! I was just getting started..."
This car's a lease, and the lease is up in January. Before I remembered that this was the year of the Model 3, I had decided that I would buy the 335 at lease-end if I could get a reasonable deal - or else buy a CPO 335 or move to a new 340.
In June, I realized that the 3 was coming. As a long-time Tesla fan (who's occasionally been tempted by the S but could never rationalize the $$) I decided to reserve one. (As an ironic side note, I had seriously debated reserving one on 3/31/16, but I thought that the 3's production release + my BMW lease end would never align... As it turns out, it would have been absolutely perfect timing.) My Model 3 reservation is due in the Apr-Jun 2018 window. My current plan is to patchwork together a short-term solution for transportation between January (lease end) and Apr/Jun, get rides, borrow a car from a family member, work from home, etc, until my Model 3 delivers.
However...... Lately, I have been having second thoughts. I think it's just the way my car makes me smile every day... and comparing that against the unknown that is the 3.
I have driven an S. It's pretty cool. It feels like the future. I very much enjoyed it, although it was a friend's loaner (his was in for service) so I didn't feel at liberty to really floor it and experience its full power. Nonetheless, I found a certain sterility to the driving experience.
As if put there just to tempt me, I've recently discovered a 2017 340xi with a 6-speed transmission at a local dealership. Although manual transmissions are offered on the 3-series, they're virtually never found in inventory, and my desire to get a deal whenever possible has always precluded me from custom-ordering a 3-series (I seriously wonder if someone ordered the car & then backed out). Before the Model 3 came along... this would've been my ideal car. Now I am torn.
Long story short, I'm having a bit of a crisis. Like you, I don't want to make the switch and then find that I miss the visceral joy of the high-performing ICE. Current plan is... I want to go test-drive an S... ideally even see if they'll let me do an overnight so I can get the full experience. Then maybe go test-drive that 340xi w/6-speed.
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
It seems like the 6-speed has you salivating so much you lost track of what you had just said
WhiskySTL
Member
Nope. Well aware. The only thing that sucks worse than driving a normal (non-EAP) car in stop-and-go traffic is driving a stick shift in stop-and-go traffic. Doesn't mean it isn't worth it the rest of the time. But EAP for rush hour is absolutely a factor in my thoughts.It seems like the 6-speed has you salivating so much you lost track of what you had just said
WhiskySTL
Member
So.... in particular, for the amusement of the anti-ICE crowd, I must share that last night, in the midst of my Model 3 v. 335 crisis (first world problem?) my BMW's engine overheated while I was driving my kid to swim practice. (Fortunately, they've done such a good job with on-screen warnings that I had plenty of time to pull over into a side street and did not create a major traffic incident on the very busy, narrow 2-lane road I was traveling.)
Almost 3 years and I've never had an issue. Coincidence?? Some might say the universe is giving me a sign.
Almost 3 years and I've never had an issue. Coincidence?? Some might say the universe is giving me a sign.
shrspeedblade
Rideshare Monkey
As a former BMW owner I'm going to throw the first line out there and guess water pump? If so, it's amazing they're having the same problem/weak point for over 20 years!
I absolutely loved my E36 M3 Sedan, but when we moved to a place it was hard to work on cars I had to honor my own self-promise when I got it that most of the work (which was fairly frequent) I had to do myself or I would sell it.
If it's at all encouraging, I just saw my first Model 3 a couple of days ago, and would describe the size as "perfect" just as my old M3/4/5 was perfect: 4 adults and a fair bit of luggage can be hauled comfortably. So big enough but no bigger=perfect for me. If it handles like/better than my old M3 I'm going to be deliriously happy!
I absolutely loved my E36 M3 Sedan, but when we moved to a place it was hard to work on cars I had to honor my own self-promise when I got it that most of the work (which was fairly frequent) I had to do myself or I would sell it.
If it's at all encouraging, I just saw my first Model 3 a couple of days ago, and would describe the size as "perfect" just as my old M3/4/5 was perfect: 4 adults and a fair bit of luggage can be hauled comfortably. So big enough but no bigger=perfect for me. If it handles like/better than my old M3 I'm going to be deliriously happy!
After giving multiple test rides this weekend for NDEW where halfway through the on-ramp I had to let off at 100mph, I can somewhat understand your point. I can't say that I 'get' the appeal of this though: "frustrated sound the engine makes".
12Pack
Member
Indeed WhiskySTL and OP, you have a choice to make. I love my Model S, but its no performance car in the traditional sense - and its not meant to be. It wonderfully efficient motoring that has achieved a cult following for its standing start acceleration since Tesla have added the trick of dumping stored electrons at was is really an unsustainable rate (the ICE equivalent is using nitrous).
So yes, you would have to give up some traditional performance car perceived virtues like a rising crescendo of sound and acceleration that just continues on. But you do get a VERY cool car that will wow you with many other virtues.
So yes, you would have to give up some traditional performance car perceived virtues like a rising crescendo of sound and acceleration that just continues on. But you do get a VERY cool car that will wow you with many other virtues.
omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
If by the universe, you mean German luxury brands, then yes, they're giving you the same sign they give everyone else.So.... in particular, for the amusement of the anti-ICE crowd, I must share that last night, in the midst of my Model 3 v. 335 crisis (first world problem?) my BMW's engine overheated while I was driving my kid to swim practice. (Fortunately, they've done such a good job with on-screen warnings that I had plenty of time to pull over into a side street and did not create a major traffic incident on the very busy, narrow 2-lane road I was traveling.)
Almost 3 years and I've never had an issue. Coincidence?? Some might say the universe is giving me a sign.
My wife had two Audi A3s, and the second one was ridiculous. We had three water pump replacements in the first ~40k miles, and I believe enough time at the dealer to qualify for the lemon law presumption in CA. I sent a demand letter to Audi corporate prior to her lease turn in and we ended up settling for a couple grand.
It's especially annoying because her first A3 was great. No maintenance issues to speak of during the lease (although that could have been dumb luck), and it was also six-speed that someone custom ordered and never purchased. I really wish she had kept that car, especially because she would have owned it outright given how much she spent on both leases, but she was fed up with being the only person who could drive her car on long trips (I can also drive stick but we hadn't met yet).
WhiskySTL
Member
As a former BMW owner I'm going to throw the first line out there and guess water pump? If so, it's amazing they're having the same problem/weak point for over 20 years!
I absolutely loved my E36 M3 Sedan, but when we moved to a place it was hard to work on cars I had to honor my own self-promise when I got it that most of the work (which was fairly frequent) I had to do myself or I would sell it.
If it's at all encouraging, I just saw my first Model 3 a couple of days ago, and would describe the size as "perfect" just as my old M3/4/5 was perfect: 4 adults and a fair bit of luggage can be hauled comfortably. So big enough but no bigger=perfect for me. If it handles like/better than my old M3 I'm going to be deliriously happy!
That's what the service guy thought it would be, but it appears to be a dead fan. He thinks that would explain why the a/c was also affected. We'll see tomorrow.
They gave me a 2017 M240i coupe as a loaner, and it's fantastic. Unfortunately, I stuck my 7yo in the back seat to see how she fit back there, and although I was surprised that she has enough leg room, she was immediately despairing at not having her own windows and by the end of our brief drive she wasn't feeling too great either... she's prone to car sickness, so the limited visibility & no dedicated windows in the back seat probably make it a no go. Too bad, because it is really fun.
I 100% agree with you about just big enough. I love the S and am often tempted in spite of the price, but ultimately the deal breaker is that it's just too big for my taste... too much of a pain on tight streets and for parallel parking. Like you, I've found my 335 to be the perfect size - I am actually somewhat concerned that the Model 3 is almost 1 foot wider than the 3 series.
I will really feel better when I can drive one.
WhiskySTL
Member
I was probably being overly poetic. The point was really that no matter how I push it, it is always eager to give even more.
WhiskySTL
Member
I am certain you are right!
I am very much looking forward to the off-the-line performance of the 3.
Maybe while people are still driving their cars, we should copy something from the aviation industry - a high performance endorsement. If you have a pilot's license and want to fly anything with more than 300hp, you need to go back to classes and get an endorsement (which will take 5-10 hours). Maybe bring in type ratings as well - different certifications based on the type of car - manual vs automatic, rear wheel drive vs front vs all, small coupe/hatch versus a large SUV/pickup.
More and more stringent regulations and drivers education requirements will do a two fold job - make safer drivers, and encourage people to switch to automated taxi services like the Tesla Network.
More and more stringent regulations and drivers education requirements will do a two fold job - make safer drivers, and encourage people to switch to automated taxi services like the Tesla Network.
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