Car maker cheats on emissions, car maker pays the price, people still single out Tesla

[SageBrush]

For wealthy people it is unlikely that the tax rebate is a deciding factor for their purchase decision

That is just pandering to class warfare. Notice how Tesla is responding to the $3,750 tax cut.

 

[Darthbenji]

I realize that.
But a 25k EV that can go 400km and work well in the cold would incite far more people to switch than the present offerings.

I agree. What has that got to do with your argument that rich people are buying 100k Teslas and being unjustly subsidized by the poor?

 

[ricohman]

I don't know you came up with $30 a week. Do you ?

In any case, a Tesla does not have to be paid all at once either.

For someone so concerned over "poor" people, you are remarkably clueless.

Yeah. I'm sure there are countless people making 50k a year (the average in Canada) that are shopping 60K cars.
That's laughable. Talk about clueless.

 

[SageBrush]

Yeah. I'm sure there are countless people making 50k a year (the average in Canada) that are shopping 60K cars.

The question for them can be (and should be) TCO

Using the declared $30 a week for fuel, it implies ~ 13,000 km a year driving. Ill be polite here and only suggest that you pull numbers out of your rear end.

You are a waste of time. I'm done with you.

 

[ricohman]

The question for them can be (and should be) TCO

Using the declared $30 a week for fuel, it implies ~ 13,000 km a year driving. Ill be polite here and only suggest that you pull numbers out of your rear end.

You are a waste of time. I'm done with you.

Gas is $2.50 a gallon in Colorado? 30 bucks buys 12 gallons?
At 32 mpg that is 384 miles. Multiple that by 52. I dare you.
Math is hard.....

 

[SageBrush]

That is a BS argument. The community is paying to take an ICE off the roads because that benefits everybody. It does not matter one whit which ICE was removed.

Gas is $2.50 a gallon in Colorado? 30 bucks buys 12 gallons?
At 32 mpg that is 384 miles. Multiple that by 52. I dare you.
Math is hard.....

Is SK in Colorado ?

If you want to use Colorado petrol prices and US dollars, then use Tesla costs in Colorado: I paid $40k for my Model 3 LR. You should also use Colorado PV prices: I pay 2.5 cents a kWh

 

[gilscales]

there are number of EVs out there but people are always thinking they need more range-practically over 90% of the drive is commute: home, work, grocery etc. It's like people thinking they need unlimited talk & text on cell phone service but they don't use it. Moreover, if one buy EV-the car will pay for itself. I always admire Tesla-it made legacy auto manufacturers reluctantly make EVs.

I agree somewhat with what you are saying as I have a model 3 and unlimited talk & text, I myself can get by without the unlimited talk & text, my 21 yr. old son on the family plan however....., the thing about our model 3 is true also and probably even less than 10% of our driving will be road trips in the future (right now its about 20% because we kept finding more time to get out with our new, first and only EV) but the model 3 is also our only car as the other vehicle is a 3/4 Ford truck so having the range and easy charging ability on road trips with the model 3 is what gave us the confidence to make the leap in the first place and now we will never go back, I look forward to the Tesla pickup and hope it will meet my needs as a heavy duty hauler and work truck as I would gladly be rid of the Ford !

 

[T34ME]

In SK we have cars from the 70's and 80's rattling around everywhere.

And polluting the hell out of the air you breathe and your children and your grandchildren and so on.

I do not want any subsidy. Period.

Fine, nobody is forcing you to take it.

Somebody making ends meet can afford 30 bucks a week for fuel. They do not have to pay it all at once.

I am subsidizing that 30 bucks a week with my taxes, a giveaway program to the oil companies.

But a 25k EV that can go 400km and work well in the cold would incite far more people to switch than the present offerings.

A 25K EV that can go 400km is on the horizon, and it is the Tesla 3SR. This has resulted from the unprecedented demand for EV cars that was facilitated to a great extent by tax credits and rebates. Cause = effect, priming the pump, jumping the shark, or whatever cliche you want to use, funded by "wealthy people" and you still haven't defined who a wealthy person is. Somebody who can afford a US$25,000 car financed over 72 months? because that is what a 3SR nets out to here in California for someone who makes less than US$50K per year with credits and rebates. Get it? You could have the same thing in Ontario if it were not for some boneheaded politicians in Canada.

 

[Yangy]

There are a lot of fallacies in this thread. And we are not even arguing the same thing.

There are some facts in the society:
- The Poor Pay More. Be poor you don't have the luxury to consider long term cost or TCO, you just spend every dollar you earn this week to make ends meet.
- It might be the right thing to subsidize expensive EVs and wrong thing to subsidize oil industry. But EV subsidy is new and oil subsidy has been there for 100 years. It's our human tendency to resist change.
- Law Of Diminishing Marginal Utility. 5k or 10k subsidy means little to richer people. However, it looks like a lot of money for poorer people.
- There was only 1% of people can afford Tesla, now with model 3 maybe 10%. Majority of people still can't afford Tesla and can't experience the benefits of owning one. So to 90 percent, only the subsidy cost real and tangible. In democracy politics, you need to win the majority to pass policy.

That being said, these are all true at the same time and no need to argue against each other. I am just very glad Tesla exists ag

 

[T34ME]

There are a lot of fallacies in this thread.

And you just added to some of the fallacies. Not arguing at all but here are some additional "facts" about society:

- The Poor Pay More. Be poor you don't have the luxury to consider long term cost or TCO, you just spend every dollar you earn this week to make ends meet.

There are many working class wealthy people (those that can afford a Tesla) who live pay check to pay check and have trouble making ends meet. Some of those people never consider TCO and purchase a Tesla because of environmental concern or performance or technology, or etc.

- It might be the right thing to subsidize expensive EVs and wrong thing to subsidize oil industry. But EV subsidy is new and oil subsidy has been there for 100 years. It's our human tendency to resist change.

Eliminating credits and rebates does nothing to encourage change, in fact it is just the opposite, no financial incentive increases resistance to change

- Law Of Diminishing Marginal Utility. 5k or 10k subsidy means little to richer people. However, it looks like a lot of money for poorer people.

Well it means a lot to this working class "wealthy" stiff (because I drive the currently least expensive model 3) and consequently I can continue to pay the taxes that subsidize and support the oil industry, ICE vehicles, a frunking wall (Whose going to pay for it? Mexico's going to pay for it!), and those below the poverty level.

- There was only 1% of people can afford Tesla, now with model 3 maybe 10%. Majority of people still can't afford Tesla and can't experience the benefits of owning one. So to 90 percent, only the subsidy cost real and tangible. In democracy politics, you need to win the majority to pass policy.

Only 10% of the people can afford a US$25K model 3 with 220 mile range here in California? (to be introduced later this year after tax credits and rebates) According to USA Today, the average selling price of a new car in the US is ~ $34K. In California, it is about $5K higher than that! In 2019 the median income in the US is ~ $75K, in California ~ $83K. In California the minimum wage is now $12 per hour or ~ $24K per year.

Your presumptions are not facts (other than to you) and conclusions are seriously out of date.

 

[ricohman]

Is SK in Colorado ?

If you want to use Colorado petrol prices and US dollars, then use Tesla costs in Colorado: I paid $40k for my Model 3 LR. You should also use Colorado PV prices: I pay 2.5 cents a kWh

OK, let's use SK prices of $3.20 a gallon. That would be 9.4 gallons.
That would take somebody 483km per week.
Multiply that by 52. I dare you.
Math is really hard...….

 

[T34ME]

OK, let's use SK prices of $3.20 a gallon.

At that rate, you Canadians (both wealthy and poor) are giving YUGE subsidies to the oil industry. It is a "regressive" tax subsidy because the poor pay a higher percentage of their income for this tax than do the wealthy (those who drive Tesla's by your definition). Where is your outrage? Where is your concern for the "working class" in SK?

 

[SageBrush]

OK, let's use SK prices of $3.20 a gallon.

Let's not. What do you have against realistic discussion ?



Note that this graph translates prices into USD.

 

[Darthbenji]

OK, let's use SK prices of $3.20 a gallon. That would be 9.4 gallons.
That would take somebody 483km per week.
Multiply that by 52. I dare you.
Math is really hard...….

What does the price of gas have to do with your argument that rebates shouldn’t exist unless they include any car you want so that poor people are covered when they buy a 20k econobox? An EV only rebate unfairly targets poor people by excluding them and forcing them to pay for rich people’s vehicle purchases. Is that about right?

 

[ricohman]

What does the price of gas have to do with your argument that rebates shouldn’t exist unless they include any car you want so that poor people are covered when they buy a 20k econobox? An EV only rebate unfairly targets poor people by excluding them and forcing them to pay for rich people’s vehicle purchases. Is that about right?

No rebates in Canada.
Ontario has the largest non-sovereign debt in the WORLD. Canada now has a trillion dollar debt.
Enough is enough. 20% of people in Canada pay 90% of the taxes.
Maybe California is wealthy enough to afford such a luxury. Canada isn't in this position.

 

[StealthP3D]

Now you’re arguing for gasoline cars?
Sure you COULD drive the civic for “peanuts” as intended originally, but as an Indian person part of an Indian family who has owned nothing but Toyota’s and Honda’s, and I’m talking in the dozens, I have some experience.
Expensive maintenance is required. Oil changes and brakes are just applicable to any brand new car. But used cars are infinitely worse in maintenance costs.

Good point that a cheap older ICE car is much more expensive in terms of maintenance and repairs. Here's the funny thing. There is a myth that has recently sprung up in the anti-EV community that a good ol' ICE car goes 200,000 miles with nothing more than oil and filter changes every 10-15K. And they then proceed to cite a car they owned that (they claim) had done just that.

Pretty silly when you think about it.

 

[gilscales]

No rebates in Canada.
Ontario has the largest non-sovereign debt in the WORLD. Canada now has a trillion dollar debt.
Enough is enough. 20% of people in Canada pay 90% of the taxes.
Maybe California is wealthy enough to afford such a luxury. Canada isn't in this position.

We are not far behind you with the top 20% paying 87% and California being one of the more progressive states in the union with our new Governor "Giveaway Gavin" Newsom well then that goes without saying we are paying more than the national average by a long shot, I will echo someone else's statement on this thread and say " It's my money, I already over paid you, I'll take some back please, yes you may call it a subsidy if you wish but please give me back some of that extra tax money you stole from me!

 

[Darthbenji]

No rebates in Canada.
Ontario has the largest non-sovereign debt in the WORLD. Canada now has a trillion dollar debt.
Enough is enough. 20% of people in Canada pay 90% of the taxes.
Maybe California is wealthy enough to afford such a luxury. Canada isn't in this position.

Are Ontario’s financial responsibilities identical to the other jurisdictions you compare it to with ‘in the WORLD’? Without an apples to apples comparison that is just a conservative talking point.

Regardless, this sounds like the same old same old. Someone taking the negative view point, while being completely misinformed about the programs they say should be cut while never saying what they think governments should be allowed to spend money on.

I assume you mean the top 20% of income earners pay 90% of the tax collected in Canada. Even if your incorrect assumption of how these rebates were funded were true and the poor pay for these rebates, your most recent numbers kinda defeat your earlier argument that the poor fund these rebates since the top 20% are supplying 90% of the tax revenue.

 

[corlaandstan]

And polluting the hell out of the air you breathe and your children and your grandchildren and so on.

Fine, nobody is forcing you to take it.


I am subsidizing that 30 bucks a week with my taxes, a giveaway program to the oil companies.


A 25K EV that can go 400km is on the horizon, and it is the Tesla 3SR. This has resulted from the unprecedented demand for EV cars that was facilitated to a great extent by tax credits and rebates. Cause = effect, priming the pump, jumping the shark, or whatever cliche you want to use, funded by "wealthy people" and you still haven't defined who a wealthy person is. Somebody who can afford a US$25,000 car financed over 72 months? because that is what a 3SR nets out to here in California for someone who makes less than US$50K per year with credits and rebates. Get it? You could have the same thing in Ontario if it were not for some boneheaded politicians in Canada.

I believe the quoted price from EM was $35K not $25k. Many of those who placed a deposit in 2016 were hoping for that model!

 

[S'toon]

Disagree with this completely. The lower income people drive crap that spews out far for emissions than what wealthy people drive.
In SK we have cars from the 70's and 80's rattling around everywhere.

There are no EV rebates in SK.

The SK Party is so in thrall with the fossil fuel corporations and backwards in time they'd ban hybrids and EVs if they could, and mandate coal burning cars with steam engines.

And I just LOVE the way the SK Party justified their budget cuts that just happened to be for programs helping the needy, and handicapped, destroying STC...while at the same time giving the rich tax cuts.