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tonybelding

Active Member
Aug 17, 2006
1,483
831
Hamilton, Texas
It seems like when CARB and the ZEV mandate come up, there's often a footnote about CARB throwing some sort of obstacle in Tesla's way, or giving competing companies or technologies a leg up on them. They gave more ZEV credits to hydrogen cars than BEVs, which I've yet to hear any rational explanation for. They eased the ZEV requirements on "smaller" manufacturers, like Mazda, which are actually much bigger than Tesla. They threatened to effectively kick Tesla out of the program by putting a $60,000 cap on BEVs that would qualify.

It seems strange to me, looking on from afar. I would have imagined a love-fest between CARB and Tesla. A new company with both HQ and manufacturing in California making nothing but BEVs? What could be better? Yet, it seems as though CARB have only disdain as they see Tesla going off-script and doing their own thing. "This is not what we ordered! This wasn't part of our plan!"

What am I missing here?
 

electracity

Active Member
Jun 8, 2015
4,028
3,458
60606
I think Toyota has a large and long relationship in Cali. I think CARB and many politicians want to keep hydrogen "in the game" until 2020ish. To say that Tesla doesn't have major political capital in California is not correct.
To date Prius has reduced emissions far more than Tesla in California. The blue Prius is apparently even the official state mascot.
 

trils0n

2013 P85
Feb 12, 2013
1,527
1,979
SF Bay Area
Established industry has, at least partially, co-opted CARB, as happens to many regulatory agencies. They don't necessarily share the same vision of the future.
 

PeterK

Model X, 3 & Y Owner
Supporting Member
Jan 17, 2013
1,721
671
Cambridge, MA
Yes I think a lot of this is politics and lobbying by the established players. There's also likely some negative feeling about Tesla's price range from the populist view, and about the emphasis on looks and performance from the hard-core environmentalist view.
 

Killroy

Member
Jun 15, 2015
29
11
San Jose, CA
I'm new here and I'm searching for what Tesla is selling ZEV Credits for these days and how much or how little battery swap has effected that.

I understand that ZEV Credits are lowering in market value since other automakers are selling their own EVs. What percentage of Tesla ZEV credits get sold?

There seems to be a lot of speculation in the news and I see "Tesla gets $25,000 for each battery swap".

Thanks.
 

trils0n

2013 P85
Feb 12, 2013
1,527
1,979
SF Bay Area
CARB funds the CVRP so yes they do.

Think ggr was talking about ZEV credits not being related to the 60k cap for CA rebate. Seems like a few posters are conflating the proposed $60k purchase price limit for the CA rebate on purchasing an electric car with the ZEV credit system.

The rebate goes to the purchaser of the car (customer). The ZEV credit program involves sales of credits between automakers (no state money goes to any automaker from this program).
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,939
6,021
A lot of the time it is industry alliances lobbying CARB jointly (or if not jointly they have similar goals: reduce ZEV mandate requirements as much as possible). Tesla's really the only one benefiting from stricter ZEV mandates (because they make EVs exclusively). Nissan is the other one perhaps, but I don't believe they are selling their credits so they are likely a neutral party (they don't really want the ZEV mandate to increase, but they don't need it reduced either).
 

omgwtfbyobbq

Active Member
Aug 24, 2013
1,450
1,661
Southern California
Sorry, I don't understand. CARB has nothing to do with rebates to anyone.

Like apacheguy said, they fund the CVRP. Given the same funding, fewer rebates for expensive ($60k+ per the OP) EVs translates (1:1) into more rebates for (relatively) inexpensive EVs. This would make the program more accessible to lower income participants, especially given other incentives that just started up in the South Coast and Valley Air districts.

Having said that, trils0n brings up an interesting point. If Tesla wasn't generating ZEV credits, then it's plausible that manufacturers as a whole wouldn't be banking ZEV credits and would need to pay a little less than $5k per debit(?) to CARB. Whether or not those funds would make their way into CVRP funding is another matter entirely. I'm not sure how CARB's budget is structured, but it's possible that Tesla providing credits for other manufacturers reduces fees those manufacturers would pay and reduces the funding for CARB projects, including CVRP.
 

Killroy

Member
Jun 15, 2015
29
11
San Jose, CA

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,540
6,350
Los Altos, CA
I still don't see how Tesla would get any more 5 credits if battery swap qualified for fast charging, since the Model S is not > 300 mile range.
The range figures used in the CARB tiers are from LA5, or maybe even more generous test cycles, so a Model S 85 is definitely in the 300 mile tier. Almost all the "city cars" like Leaf, Focus, 500e, e-Golf, etc. are all in the 100 mile tier, even though they all have 80-something mile EPA range.
 

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