Cars show in other lanes when turn signal is on in 17.32/34

[mitchellh3]

I noticed something interesting today.

I've known that cars have shown in other lanes when you perform an auto lane change for some time.

However, I was on a long stretch of local road driving this morning with TACC on and I realized that they also show when you just use your lane change indicator. I was flipping my lane change indicator left, then right repeatedly (sorry cars behind me) to verify and cars show up in the other lanes. Note that this is local road with TACC, not auto lane change. I never ended up changing lanes.

What's also interesting is that it can see multiple cars (when there were two in the lane to my right they both showed up) and the closest car in the next lane turns white, which makes me wonder if the control software is actually using that car to accel/decel in any way. I'm not sure.

Anyways, I'm not sure if prior versions did this. I know prior versions showed cars on ALC like I said, but never seen it just with TACC on.

My firmware version is 17.32.17 722whatever

 

[boaterva]

Very interesting.... 17.32.17 is a unique version number, no need for the hash code.
I wonder if they aren't showing the other cars all the time to save resources? Has to be a reason....

 

[chillaban]

Very interesting.... 17.32.17 is a unique version number, no need for the hash code.
I wonder if they aren't showing the other cars all the time to save resources? Has to be a reason....

Yeah I suspect either they have a different long term plan for adjacent cars (for example, showing cars behind you via an updated UI when the side repeater cameras get activated) or the side cars are so jumpy right now it’s more distracting to show them.

But I’ve also seen my car make adjustments based off cars beside me as if it knows about them, even though they aren’t shown on screen.

 

[boaterva]

Yeah I suspect either they have a different long term plan for adjacent cars (for example, showing cars behind you via an updated UI when the side repeater cameras get activated) or the side cars are so jumpy right now it’s more distracting to show them.

But I’ve also seen my car make adjustments based off cars beside me as if it knows about them, even though they aren’t shown on screen.

Good point, using the data but not displaying except when you 'request' it on a lane change.

There was the theory that we are already using two of the forward center cameras and the two side back (looking) cameras for the 'four cameras in EAP'. So that may be happening now.

 

[croman]

Yes, I noticed this and reported it earlier. Interestingly, with 17.32 6ca28227 I get cars in the lanes adjacent to the lane I'm going into.

For example, it is a 3 lane interstate. I am in the fast lane (far left), I change to the middle lane. My IC will show: car in present lane (Gray) + car in front (black/dark gray) and then car in front of target lane (middle lane) (Gray) + car in front (Dark gray) PLUS the far right lane (one car, gray). All cars will be properly placed and angled in their lanes. This information is only revealed on the IC when you use the turn signal and only in the direction the turn signal indicates.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I noticed something interesting today.

I've known that cars have shown in other lanes when you perform an auto lane change for some time.

However, I was on a long stretch of local road driving this morning with TACC on and I realized that they also show when you just use your lane change indicator. I was flipping my lane change indicator left, then right repeatedly (sorry cars behind me) to verify and cars show up in the other lanes. Note that this is local road with TACC, not auto lane change. I never ended up changing lanes.

What's also interesting is that it can see multiple cars (when there were two in the lane to my right they both showed up) and the closest car in the next lane turns white, which makes me wonder if the control software is actually using that car to accel/decel in any way. I'm not sure.

Anyways, I'm not sure if prior versions did this. I know prior versions showed cars on ALC like I said, but never seen it just with TACC on.

My firmware version is 17.32.17 722whatever

We started noticing cars in adjacent lanes back on May 13th when I got 17.17.4. We didn't have them the day before on version 17.11.45.

I can't start at the exact point, but if you jump to 4:15, you can see video showing adjacent cars:

 

[tomas]

So the AP2 car DOES do blind spot. But only if you use your turn signal. That probably explains why so many people think it does not. They probably don't signal.

I like the positive reinforcement on signaling. It's a pet peeve of mine that most drivers view this as optional.

 

[boaterva]

So the AP2 car DOES do blind spot. But only if you use your turn signal. That probably explains why so many people think it does not. They probably don't signal.

I like the positive reinforcement on signaling. It's a pet peeve of mine that most drivers view this as optional.

Yeah, there's a thread somewhere in Autonomous, I believe... I thought forever the 'four cameras' in EAP were the front three and the backup one (because of course, right?), but it was pretty conclusively discussed there that two of the center cameras and the 'side back' cameras are the four (and the backup doesn't count because the EAP software isn't using it, you are).

Excellent that we are seeing it here!

 

[mitchellh3]

We started noticing cars in adjacent lanes back on May 13th when I got 17.17.4. We didn't have them the day before on version 17.11.45.

Yes I mentioned this in my original post. This video is showing Autosteer and ALC showing adjacent cars which I said I've known has existed for a long time (though I didn't know the exact version). My post is specifically noting this showing for non-ALC with TACC.

 

[tomas]

Which means they COULD enable even if TACC off. Anyone tested that? Sorry, I have pre AP car but very curious as I need to make AP decision about my impending model 3 orders.

 

[croman]

So the AP2 car DOES do blind spot. But only if you use your turn signal. That probably explains why so many people think it does not. They probably don't signal.

I like the positive reinforcement on signaling. It's a pet peeve of mine that most drivers view this as optional.

I wouldn't count on it. It only displays cars that are about 50 feet ahead of me. It might use ultrasonic data but that data has a huge latency time that I wouldn't trust. Unless I visually clear a lane change, I won't even try having the car attempt to change lanes even with this added IC information. I can't trust the car given the lack of affirmation from Tesla.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Yes I mentioned this in my original post. This video is showing Autosteer and ALC showing adjacent cars which I said I've known has existed for a long time (though I didn't know the exact version). My post is specifically noting this showing for non-ALC with TACC.

Sorry. Guess I was confused by the thread title.

 

[croman]

Very interesting.... 17.32.17 is a unique version number, no need for the hash code.
I wonder if they aren't showing the other cars all the time to save resources? Has to be a reason....

The IC isn't perfect. I still see cars bouncing between lanes (Matrix style) and all sorts of other errors (cars not showing up at all). I think if they pulled back the curtains, we'd see that the Emporer Has No Clothes.

 

[mitchellh3]

So the AP2 car DOES do blind spot. But only if you use your turn signal. That probably explains why so many people think it does not. They probably don't signal.

I like the positive reinforcement on signaling. It's a pet peeve of mine that most drivers view this as optional.

Kind of.

For the TACC cars: it only is showing cars in front of you to the left/right. It isn't showing cars directly in your blind spot.

For the Autosteer/ALC usage: It uses the ultrasonics currently and won't merge into a lane when those detect something. I tested that quite a lot this weekend (just a lot more autopilot driving than usual this weekend) and its decent. But it probably doesn't use the back-facing cameras.

I was actually surprised that this feature is quite a bit smarter than I thought it was...

This is a total guess but I was really messing around with this weekend to try to figure it out (I'm a sw eng so I like trying to mess around) and I think the logic is something basic like this:

1. are there any objects in ultrasonics in the detection in the direction we're going in? don't merge
2. are there any cars directly ahead (and close) in the direction we're going in? don't merge
3. did we see any cars ahead or in ultrasonics in the last 5 seconds? don't merge
4. merge

#3 is the one I don't know the exact number, but it feels like a simple timeout where they're waiting for clear for a certain period of time.

I would bet money currently that if a car was approaching quickly from behind, the Tesla would merge right into it because it satisfies the above.

 

[Electroman]

Kind of.

For the TACC cars: it only is showing cars in front of you to the left/right. It isn't showing cars directly in your blind spot.

For the Autosteer/ALC usage: It uses the ultrasonics currently and won't merge into a lane when those detect something. I tested that quite a lot this weekend (just a lot more autopilot driving than usual this weekend) and its decent. But it probably doesn't use the back-facing cameras.

I was actually surprised that this feature is quite a bit smarter than I thought it was...

This is a total guess but I was really messing around with this weekend to try to figure it out (I'm a sw eng so I like trying to mess around) and I think the logic is something basic like this:

1. are there any objects in ultrasonics in the detection in the direction we're going in? don't merge
2. are there any cars directly ahead (and close) in the direction we're going in? don't merge
3. did we see any cars ahead or in ultrasonics in the last 5 seconds? don't merge
4. merge

#3 is the one I don't know the exact number, but it feels like a simple timeout where they're waiting for clear for a certain period of time.

I would bet money currently that if a car was approaching quickly from behind, the Tesla would merge right into it because it satisfies the above.

This behavior is how exactly the same as AP1. So I guess we have reached AP1 parity or close to that ?

 

[boaterva]

Hm, I guess the 'side back' cameras aren't in play here, then, from a screen point of view. The display is showing you ones in front of you to the side, no? TACC/AS may be using the cameras so you don't ALC into someone next to you, but it's not *showing* them on the screen, unfortunately.

 

[mitchellh3]

Which means they COULD enable even if TACC off. Anyone tested that? Sorry, I have pre AP car but very curious as I need to make AP decision about my impending model 3 orders.

I just tried this on my drive this morning and they don't show up unless TACC is on.

 

[croman]

Hm, I guess the 'side back' cameras aren't in play here, then, from a screen point of view. The display is showing you ones in front of you to the side, no? TACC/AS may be using the cameras so you don't ALC into someone next to you, but it's not *showing* them on the screen, unfortunately.

I doubt they are active right now. The IC doesn't display a car until it is about 30-50 feet in front. It does attempt to track cars as they change lanes and it uses the fluid lines to display ultrasonic results but I've noticed almost a 1/4 second latency.

As @mitchellh3 stated, a fast closing car would be a situation where AP1 and 2 (currently) would fail using ALC. I do think the rear facing cameras (ones in the turn signal repeater) will close this deficiency of AP1 and finally put 2 in a position of superiority to 1 (in one facet anyways).

 

[chillaban]

I doubt they are active right now. The IC doesn't display a car until it is about 30-50 feet in front. It does attempt to track cars as they change lanes and it uses the fluid lines to display ultrasonic results but I've noticed almost a 1/4 second latency.

As @mitchellh3 stated, a fast closing car would be a situation where AP1 and 2 (currently) would fail using ALC. I do think the rear facing cameras (ones in the turn signal repeater) will close this deficiency of AP1 and finally put 2 in a position of superiority to 1 (in one facet anyways).

FWIW, I think the ultrasonic latency is worse on the screen than for AP itself. I've definitely felt the sudden ultrasonics-based lane position corrections when someone creeps close to me, far before it displays on screen.

But yes, completely agreed on the second point — the ultrasonic range is relatively small, I'd say 10ft or so reliably. It will not detect fast-approaching cars, and it sometimes can't even detect someone in the next lane if both you and them are hugging opposite sides of the lane. In that case, the car actually begins a lane change, and once it sees the other car it will abort the lane change. But that will scare the crap out of any human driver because they assume you are going to sideswipe them. Bottom line, it will take additional cameras coming online to have reliable auto lane change.

 

[boaterva]

They may not be used for ALC, but the thread in Autonomous was pretty sure those are the four cameras EAP is using. As usual, there's the whole which part of the software is using what for what, as always. I think that was the rationale for including them with the first 'four cameras' and then the others are in FSD.