CCS Adapter for North America

[bobby g]

Where a Tesla is not Betamax, is that you are not limited, if you have the adapters you can charge at:
Tesla Connector, L1, L2 or Supercharger.
Chadamo.
J1772,
CCS1 (soon).
Most AC plugs.

We aren't limited to just CCS1 or have a mobile connector limited to 120 volts at 12 AMPS or 240 volts at 27 AMPS like the mobile connector included with my Leaf. I have a number of adapters from Tesla and 3rd parties to where we can charge Model Y for example 120 volts at 24 AMPS (RV Travel trailer). My leaf doesn't even have an option to charge at 120 volt at 16AMPS (likely the 2nd most popular plug in the USA).

Once the CCS1 adapter ships in volume, I would say that they will have the most versatile cars in terms of charging.

Tesla would be a Betamax deck that can play and record on VHS without skipping a beat.

I agree. We have, soon anyway, access to everything in NA and exclusive access to the largest system in NA. I am curious how opening up the SC's to other vehicles will be implemented but I hope it's by addition rather than modification.

 

[jsight]

Where a Tesla is not Betamax, is that you are not limited, if you have the adapters you can charge at:
Tesla Connector, L1, L2 or Supercharger.
Chadamo.
J1772,
CCS1 (soon).
Most AC plugs.

We aren't limited to just CCS1 or have a mobile connector limited to 120 volts at 12 AMPS or 240 volts at 27 AMPS like the mobile connector included with my Leaf. I have a number of adapters from Tesla and 3rd parties to where we can charge Model Y for example 120 volts at 24 AMPS (RV Travel trailer). My leaf doesn't even have an option to charge at 120 volt at 16AMPS (likely the 2nd most popular plug in the USA).

Once the CCS1 adapter ships in volume, I would say that they will have the most versatile cars in terms of charging.

Tesla would be a Betamax deck that can play and record on VHS without skipping a beat.

Yeah, and the other side is flexible too. The charge providers for DCFC almost all have multiple connectors and adding Tesla connectors would immediately be both easy and more lucrative in many markets.

 

[Mockingbird]

TPC is going to get phased out simply for the fact that it wouldn't be needed.

Tesla gets subsidies from the government for the Superchargers and the Superchagers get CCS.

Other fast chargers already have CCS and even more of them will be build with subsidies from the government.

It doesn't make sense for new vehicles to use TPC when CCS provides universal compatibility.

Then there's the CCS adapter for legacy TPC vehicles to use CCS.

At that point, TPC just becomes redundant.

 

[terranx]

I just don't see it happening. At best, they eventually install both ports on the car. Hell, if the government requires a "standard" connector to receive money, I could see Elon trolling everyone and going CCS2/J3068 instead of CCS1.

 

[Mockingbird]

I just don't see it happening. At best, they eventually install both ports on the car. Hell, if the government requires a "standard" connector to receive money, I could see Elon trolling everyone and going CCS2/J3068 instead of CCS1.

"non-proprietary charging connectors" are required by law.

Also, the government gets to choose who to give the subsidies to and there is no way that the government would approve CCS2 which doesn't even exist in North America.

 

[terranx]

"non-proprietary charging connectors" are required by law.

Also, the government gets to choose who to give the subsidies to and there is no way that the government would approve CCS2 which doesn't even exist in North America.

J3068 standard exists in America, which is physically and electrically identical to CCS2. That would count as a "non-proprietary charging connector".

But really, most likely situation is they just install both connectors on the superchargers to get the money (if they care about the money) and possibly eventually both connectors on the car. I highly doubt they'll eliminate the TPC.

 

[Mockingbird]

J3068 standard exists in America, which is physically and electrically identical to CCS2. That would count as a "non-proprietary charging connector".

Show me a few example of these J3068 charging stations.

 

[STS-134]

Show me a few example of these J3068 charging stations.

It's irrelevant how many exist. It's been standardized, it's called J3068, and it's identical to the Mennekes connector. CHAdeMO is basically on life support but that one counts too. So Elon could just install dual TPC + J3068 DC8 No AC fast charging connectors on his superchargers and tell any manufacturers and vehicle owners who want to use it that they either need a J3068 connector on their vehicle or they have to get an adapter (which by the way already exists). He'd get the money for the build out, and Tesla owners would probably get at least a few months to a couple of years of mostly exclusive use of the SCs (which would cause a lot less controversy and ire directed at Tesla) until the J3068 to J1772 adapters become popular and/or more vehicles get native J3068 connectors. Just look at how many TPC to J1772 AC charging adapters there are on the market now; there are even "bypass" adapters that allow non Tesla vehicles to charge at wall connectors that are set to only allow Teslas to charge.

 

[Jeff N]

CCS has switched to 800V to get to the 350kW nameplate speeds (real world more like 250kW),

I’m just catching up on this thread now….

The Lucid Air tops out at 304 kW and charges at about 300 kW from around 5-16% state of charge on Electrify America’s 350 kW chargers starting at 1% full.

If starting the charge session at near 10% instead of sub-5% that peak charging SOC would presumably slide up to 10-20% or something like that but that’s just a guess.

 

[Jeff N]

When solid state batteries bring megawatt charging to passenger vehicles, we'll need a new connector.

We already have one.

It’s the Megawatt charging plug that Tesla and the CCS crowd jointly designed for large commercial big rigs like the Tesla Semi and semi trucks coming out from Freightliner (Daimler Truck) and others.

As I understand it, it uses a physical plug largely designed by Tesla and uses the communications protocol from CCS. This is what Tesla has already started to install at a few early sites like Nevada Gigafactory (I think) and a Frito Lay (early Tesla Semi customer) site in Modesto, California.

 

[SageBrush]

Tesla gets subsidies from the government for the Superchargers and the Superchagers get CCS.

A *fraction* of the (new) Superchargers get CCS1. The rules I have seen are 1:4

The TPC has a lot going for it, compared to CCS1:

1. Superior ergonomics
2. Tesla controls the tech, the user experience, and access

I expect Tesla to add just enough CCS1 ports to get the grant money, and then build TPC only for the Tesla fleet. Personally, I am fine with that approach so long as I can buy a moderately priced CCS1 adapter for my infrequent CCS1 usage.

 

[Mockingbird]

It's irrelevant how many exist. It's been standardized, it's called J3068, and it's identical to the Mennekes connector. CHAdeMO is basically on life support but that one counts too. So Elon could just install dual TPC + J3068 DC8 No AC fast charging connectors on his superchargers and tell any manufacturers and vehicle owners who want to use it that they either need a J3068 connector on their vehicle or they have to get an adapter (which by the way already exists). He'd get the money for the build out, and Tesla owners would probably get at least a few months to a couple of years of mostly exclusive use of the SCs (which would cause a lot less controversy and ire directed at Tesla) until the J3068 to J1772 adapters become popular and/or more vehicles get native J3068 connectors. Just look at how many TPC to J1772 AC charging adapters there are on the market now; there are even "bypass" adapters that allow non Tesla vehicles to charge at wall connectors that are set to only allow Teslas to charge.

It is very relevant.

The subsidies will be given out as grants.

Tesla in not entitled to the grants.

If other applicants (Electrify America/EVgo/Francis Energy/etc.) submits applications for EV charging stations based on CCS1 while Tesla submits applications for EV charging stations based on J3068, the government would award the grants to other applicants and Tesla gets to go home empty handed.

 

[Mockingbird]

A *fraction* of the (new) Superchargers get CCS1. The rules I have seen are 1:4

The TPC has a lot going for it, compared to CCS1:

1. Superior ergonomics
2. Tesla controls the tech, the user experience, and access

I expect Tesla to add just enough CCS1 ports to get the grant money, and then build TPC only for the Tesla fleet. Personally, I am fine with that approach so long as I can buy a moderately priced CCS1 adapter for my infrequent CCS1 usage.

Tesla can install as many TPC as it wants, but that is not what Tesla would get subsidies for.

Tesla can install nine TPC chargers, but only one CCS1 chargers.

Tesla would get subsidies for the one CCS1 chargers, but not the nine TPC chargers.

 

[RTPEV]

Tesla can install as many TPC as it wants, but that is not what Tesla would get subsidies for.

Tesla can install nine TPC chargers, but only one CCS1 chargers.

Tesla would get subsidies for the one CCS1 chargers, but not the nine TPC chargers.

Elon has been very clear as to what he thinks about government subsidies (grants would fall into that category) Elon Musk says the US should ‘get rid of all’ government subsidies

Whether he's being hypocritical or not (certainly Tesla benefited greatly from subsidies in their early years) doesn't matter. At its current size, and certainly with Elon's current attitude, they've demonstrated that they don't care deeply about these subsidies.

Will they try to get a piece of the infrastructure funds? Well yes, but I doubt it's something they would make such a massive change to their architecture to get a piece of the $7.5B (which in reality I think is mostly going to go towards L2 stations in multi-unit dwellings, workplaces, and urban parking decks/lots).

 

[Mockingbird]

Elon has been very clear as to what he thinks about government subsidies (grants would fall into that category) Elon Musk says the US should ‘get rid of all’ government subsidies

Whether he's being hypocritical or not (certainly Tesla benefited greatly from subsidies in their early years) doesn't matter. At its current size, and certainly with Elon's current attitude, they've demonstrated that they don't care deeply about these subsidies.

Will they try to get a piece of the infrastructure funds? Well yes, but I doubt it's something they would make such a massive change to their architecture to get a piece of the $7.5B (which in reality I think is mostly going to go towards L2 stations in multi-unit dwellings, workplaces, and urban parking decks/lots).

That's just sour grapes. He's just pissed that Biden is not giving him the limelight.

I can make a list of things Elon said that didn't turns out to be true and it would be longer than the paper.

Fortunately, I am not that bored.

 

[Xelloss99]

Tesla can install as many TPC as it wants, but that is not what Tesla would get subsidies for.

Tesla can install ninety-nine TPC chargers, but only one CCS1 chargers.

Tesla would get subsidies for the one CCS1 chargers, but not the ninety-nine TPC chargers.

This entirely depends on the wording of the final legislation which isn't finalized (although given Biden's bias against Tesla, there is sure to be any means possible to exclude them without explicitly calling them out by name). Once Tesla can look at the wording they can determine the best means possible to utilize it (if they want to be eligible).

Two recent Canadian subsidized programs include one that required at least 25% standard connectors and up to 75% proprietary (with at least one CCS and one CHAdeMO minimum) resulting in fully funded 12 stall Supercharger+3 CCS/CHAdeMO sites (and smaller equivalents), with another requiring only one standard connector (CCS and CHAdeMO) resulting in fully funded 8 stall Supercharger+1 CCS/CHAdeMO sites.
These were done with third party 50 kW DC fast chargers, but if the US legislation is worded to not require CHAdeMO, it may be possible to use a Supercharger with additional CCS connector to qualify as a standard connector (again this will depend on wording)

I would expect Biden's legislation wouldn't be so generous and likely will require all stations to have a standard connector but without the final wording it is too early to tell.

Heck if the legislation just mentions "connectors" and not "protocols", and Elon was particularly annoyed at Biden, it could be possible to have a Supercharger with both a TPC and a CCS1 connector but the CCS using CAN/Tesla signaling so that no other cars except a Tesla with passthrough CCS adapter (or later with a native port) will be able to use the CCS head. (And if the wording is particularly exclusive and disqualifies any stations with a proprietary head, make the head CCS with CAN and tether a CCS to TPC adapter to it to do the same thing to make all existing Teslas work and no other CCS cars work)

Or do like Europe with the CCS head as PLC but need billing handshake so other vehicles can't use it unless/until Tesla activate other usage with the Tesla app for billing,
It just depends on the wording of the bill as to what Tesla can do and what they want to do.

 

[Mockingbird]

This entirely depends on the wording of the final legislation which isn't finalized (although given Biden's bias against Tesla, there is sure to be any means possible to exclude them without explicitly calling them out by name). Once Tesla can look at the wording they can determine the best means possible to utilize it (if they want to be eligible).

The legislation was already finalized and signed into law.

 

[STS-134]

It is very relevant.

The subsidies will be given out as grants.

Tesla in not entitled to the grants.

If other applicants (Electrify America/EVgo/Francis Energy/etc.) submits applications for EV charging stations based on CCS1 while Tesla submits applications for EV charging stations based on J3068, the government would award the grants to other applicants and Tesla gets to go home empty handed.

The government has no grounds to deny grants if the legislation is written to allow any "standard connector" and it defines "standard connector" as any electric vehicle DC fast charging connector published by SAE International or IEC. They'd only have grounds to deny it if it explicitly specifies CCS Combo 1 but I highly doubt they'd write the legislation to be that technology specific. Do you have a link to the actual text of the legislation?

 

[Mockingbird]

The government has no grounds to deny grants if the legislation is written to allow any "standard connector" and it defines "standard connector" as any electric vehicle DC fast charging connector published by SAE International or IEC. They'd only have grounds to deny it if it explicitly specifies CCS Combo 1 but I highly doubt they'd write the legislation to be that technology specific. Do you have a link to the actual text of the legislation?

No, you got that wrong.

The government has no grounds to disqualify Tesla for the grants (if Tesla chooses J3068), but the government gets to choose who to award the grants to.

Tesla is not entitled to the grants.

Choosing a standard that doesn't even exist in North America is a good way to walk home empty handed.

 

[STS-134]

No, you got that wrong.

The government has no grounds to disqualify Tesla for the grants (if Tesla chooses J3068), but the government gets to choose who to award the grants to.

That's a good way to get sued for discrimination. That's like the government saying "we're giving grants to people to go to college and we get to choose who gets them" and it just so happens that only people of one race actually get them.

Link to the legislation please?