CCS Adapter for North America

[STS-134]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, 3-phase power is an AC thing, not a DC thing.

Yes.

CCS (1 or 2) is a DC fast-charging standard, so it does not, per se, support 3-phase power. (If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.) If Tesla's CCS2-equipped vehicles support 3-phase power, that's because they're sold in Europe, where 3-phase power is common, and it'd be the Level 2 support in those vehicles (via the Type 2 connector, which is associated with CCS2 much as J1772 is associated with CCS1) that works with 3-phase power. Sure, they're associated, but in this case, if I understand the standards correctly, it's the Type 2 connector that you want for 3-phase support, not the CCS2 connector per se.

Correct. But remember what CCS is: it's a level 2 (either J1772 in the case of CCS1, or J3068 in the case of CCS2) connector with two DC fast charging pins kludged onto the bottom of it. The AC connector is not used during the fast charging process except for signaling, and the AC pins are idle during DC fast charging.

In theory, a car could support CCS1 DC fast charging and Type 2 Level 2 AC charging. This would require two plugs, similar to CHAdeMO/J1772, so it would be an ugly and awkward solution, and I do not anticipate any manufacturer producing such a vehicle, but AFAIK there's no technical reason it wouldn't work. Of course, in practice a CCS2 car is almost certain to also support Type 2 AC charging, but they aren't quite the same thing.

The problem there is that unlike CHAdeMO/J1772, where the fast charging pins are only one one connector and the AC charging pins are only on the other, in this situation, you'd have pins on both connectors connected together internally. If you use the CCS1 connector for fast charging for example, the CCS2 connector's DC pins would be live. If you use the J3068 (CCS2 upper portion) for AC charging, the J1772 AC pins will be live. This presents a significant shock hazard and wouldn't be allowed unless the vehicle somehow disconnects the unused connector's pins.

I don't think the CCS1/CCS2 division is ever going to get resolved any more than the 3G WCDMA/UMTS vs. EVDO ever got resolved. But when a new generation of connector is introduced, everything is going to converge (just like what happened with 4G LTE). Hopefully someone takes the elegance of the TPC and uses those design principles to make a connector that can also do 3 phase AC. Such a connector would have two large DC charging pins that double as the neutral and L1 AC pins, and then smaller L2 and L3 AC pins for 3 phase.

 

[cwerdna]

CCS2 is a plus in business and apartment buildings as the mckenzie/j1773 part of the CCS2 plug supports 3-phase power.

You mean the Mennekes Type 2 portion? Too bad I don't know of any Mennekes Type 2 nor CCS2 public charging in the US given that there are no consumer EVs/PHEVs shipping or that have shipped in the US with those connectors.

 

[jsight]

At 350 kW, which is doable at 800 or 900 volt architectures and the 400-500 amp capabilities of CCS1, a 75 kWh car could be charged from 10% to 80% in 9 minutes if it could take 350 kW the whole time. So I think it'll be a while before we need more than CCS1 can offer, and the limit is much more about the car side than the plugs.

Yeah, even with 200kwh packs, they could go to 1000v and 500 amp systems. 500kw is pretty fast with a good charge curve and I bet they could even increase the amperage a bit more without breaking backward compatibility.

 

[LRCasey]

You have 8+ hours to charge, probably better to have 4x 6-15 plugs, so more people can charge simultaneously.

At my work we had about 40 Chargepoint chargers which wasn't nearly enough for all of the EV's at work. We'd have to move our cars after 4 hours of charging or begin to incur fees. The additional problem was that there was limited open parking spots (pre-covid clearly). To get around this issue work installed 100 charging stations from PowerFlex EV Charging | PowerFlex. It automatically does load balancing across all 100 charging stations so everyone can plug in at once and as cars are done charging it shifts more capacity to other stations. I typically get 7kW charge speed which is more than enough for a 8-10 hour workday. PowerFlex has been working out really well and everyone seems to be happy now. If you don't get one of the 140 charge stations there are a lot of NEMA 5-20 outlets you can use.

 

[Jeff N]

There is a company in Europe which claims to have a CCS cable design capable of supporting up to 800A. I don’t think it’s been commercialized yet. That could support something like 650 kW which should be fine for the next generation of large vehicles with 150-200 kWh packs. We’re not likely to see packs much larger than that for mainstream consumer vehicles although newer batteries might support faster charging. Tesla could likely get similar results with an upgraded TPC cable.

Beyond that, it probably makes sense to just adopt the Megacharger DC cabling and plug design that Tesla developed jointly with the CCS folks for use in charging semi and other larger trucks. That spec supports up to 1,500V at up to 3000A but cheaper implementations might only support up to 1000A or 1500A with thinner cables and less aggressive cooling.

 

[EfficientWatts]

Yes.

Correct. But remember what CCS is: it's a level 2 (either J1772 in the case of CCS1, or J3068 in the case of CCS2) connector with two DC fast charging pins kludged onto the bottom of it. The AC connector is not used during the fast charging process except for signaling, and the AC pins are idle during DC fast charging.

The problem there is that unlike CHAdeMO/J1772, where the fast charging pins are only one one connector and the AC charging pins are only on the other, in this situation, you'd have pins on both connectors connected together internally. If you use the CCS1 connector for fast charging for example, the CCS2 connector's DC pins would be live. If you use the J3068 (CCS2 upper portion) for AC charging, the J1772 AC pins will be live. This presents a significant shock hazard and wouldn't be allowed unless the vehicle somehow disconnects the unused connector's pins.

I don't think the CCS1/CCS2 division is ever going to get resolved any more than the 3G WCDMA/UMTS vs. EVDO ever got resolved. But when a new generation of connector is introduced, everything is going to converge (just like what happened with 4G LTE). Hopefully someone takes the elegance of the TPC and uses those design principles to make a connector that can also do 3 phase AC. Such a connector would have two large DC charging pins that double as the neutral and L1 AC pins, and then smaller L2 and L3 AC pins for 3 phase.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, 3-phase power is an AC thing, not a DC thing. CCS (1 or 2) is a DC fast-charging standard, so it does not, per se, support 3-phase power. (If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.) If Tesla's CCS2-equipped vehicles support 3-phase power, that's because they're sold in Europe, where 3-phase power is common, and it'd be the Level 2 support in those vehicles (via the Type 2 connector, which is associated with CCS2 much as J1772 is associated with CCS1) that works with 3-phase power. Sure, they're associated, but in this case, if I understand the standards correctly, it's the Type 2 connector that you want for 3-phase support, not the CCS2 connector per se. In theory, a car could support CCS1 DC fast charging and Type 2 Level 2 AC charging. This would require two plugs, similar to CHAdeMO/J1772, so it would be an ugly and awkward solution, and I do not anticipate any manufacturer producing such a vehicle, but AFAIK there's no technical reason it wouldn't work. Of course, in practice a CCS2 car is almost certain to also support Type 2 AC charging, but they aren't quite the same thing.

@STS-134 i think you misunderstood the person's suggestion. it was ccs1 and a type 2 plug, not a ccs1 and ccs2 in the car. that could be done as we already have instances of cars with two ac ports, the porsche taycan. on it only fast charging is on one of the ports. in theory the standalone ac port could be type 1 or type 2, but in practice its the same type as on the ccs enabled port. obviously they have it worked out so one can't double-charge the car. there wouldn't be two sets of HV cables.

also even in the scenario of a ccs1 & ccs2 port in the same car, i think they wouldn't make both connectors live to prevent the issue you mentioned; i don't think that would be a stumbling block in having dual ports, and i could see that happening for semi trucks and such down the road (MCS and CCS charging). but all of that switching and electronics to detect HV does increase the complexity somewhat as well as costs from having to run multiple sets of HV cables

 

[whenryb]

First time on my M3P with the CCS adapter and Electrify America. Here in TN, rates are per min not per Kw which is great at peak charging rates.

I used two different chargers, 150kw and 350kw. Stats below:

150kw charger - SOC from 4% to 20% - Kw delivered 13, time 7min, cost $1.84, avg Kwh delivered 111, cost per Kwh $0.142
350kw charger - SOC from 20% to 60% - Kw delivered 33, time 15min, cost $3.82, avg Kwh delivered 132, cost per Kwh $0.115

Peak on the 350kw charger was 184 Kw

Supercharger pricing here in TN @ 100-180kw is $0.76 per min compared to $0.32 per min for Electrify America.

Given the pricing above, EA is actually on par or slightly cheaper than charging at home. Electricity here in TN is really cheap.

 

[israndy]

Really cheap, hmmmm.... Solar? Wind? Hydro? maybe coal?

 

[Exelion]

Really cheap, hmmmm.... Solar? Wind? Hydro? maybe coal?

I’d be very surprised if that was nuclear, solar or wind. Those are not cheap. Most likely hydro, coal or natural gas.

 

[GHammer]

Really cheap, hmmmm.... Solar? Wind? Hydro? maybe coal?

I’d be very surprised if that was nuclear, solar or wind. Those are not cheap. Most likely hydro, coal or natural gas.

39% nuclear, 19% coal, 26% natural gas, 11% hydro, 3% wind and solar,

 

[DrGriz]

I’d be very surprised if that was nuclear, solar or wind. Those are not cheap. Most likely hydro, coal or natural gas.

Right now, solar and wind are cheap.

U.S. levelized capital costs by energy source 2028 | Statista

In the United States, new offshore wind power-generating sites entering the grid in 2028 had estimated capital costs of 89.61 U.S.

www.statista.com

 

[vikingrob]

Would it not be more logical for ALL EVs in the States to go to CCS2?? I mean, if you're going to switch over, let's come into sinc with most of the rest of the world.

Rich

Right now, solar and wind are cheap.

U.S. levelized capital costs by energy source 2028 | Statista

In the United States, new offshore wind power-generating sites entering the grid in 2028 had estimated capital costs of 89.61 U.S.

www.statista.com

View attachment 808141

But then how long has it been since a new nuclear reactor was placed into commercial service?

 

[DrGriz]

But then how long has it been since a new nuclear reactor was placed into commercial service?

I probably answered the wrong question with that chart. I think it depends a lot more on where you are and how your state manages things and how the generative sources were subsidized than the actual source.

Hawaii, Oil 35.5 cents. California, broad mix with natural gas being most but not dominant, 23 cents. Illinois, nuclear, 13.53 cents. Iowa, predominantly wind, second coal, pays 11.55 cents/kWh in December. Wyoming, 10.63 for predominantly coal, wind second. Idaho, hydro, 10.33.

 

[Exelion]

that’s what I was wondering too….why am I paying $0.23+ per kW but others in other states are paying from $0.04-$0.11. That’s a big difference! It’s gotta be management and politics.

 

[DrGriz]

that’s what I was wondering too….why am I paying $0.23+ per kW but others in other states are paying from $0.04-$0.11. That’s a big difference! It’s gotta be management and politics.

Well, and transmission and transportation. If you have to haul oil across the ocean, or pipe gas across several states, it isn't the same as when it's right there, like coal in Wyoming and or the hydro dams I could practically see from my house if they weren't in a deep canyon.

 

[avs007]

that’s what I was wondering too….why am I paying $0.23+ per kW but others in other states are paying from $0.04-$0.11. That’s a big difference! It’s gotta be management and politics.

Well, even if your power is generated the same, doesn't mean it produces the same amount of power. For example, over here in Washington, we have the Grand Coulee Dam, which according to their website, generates more power than every other hydro facility in the US, at 21 billion kWh annually. And the Columbia river has several hydro facilities along it's path... Just as a reference, Hoover Dam in Nevada only generates 4 billion kWh annually.

This article says the Columbia River basin generates the most hydro power of any river in the US, generating 29 gigawatts, or 44% of total US hydro power generation. This probably explains why we have some of the lowest electric rates over here...

 

[israndy]

When I got my car in early 2018 you guys were paying 11¢/kWh to Supercharge

Of course back in the late 80's, when I moved from LA to SF, the Bay Area was famous for being very rainy and foggy. Now with global warming it's kinda LA weather (minus the smog) all the time. Wonder what's gonna happen to all that hydro as the warming trend continues. If you guys want me to move up there I would be happy to bring my LA weather with me.

 

[Baluchi]

Ordered a CCS adapter from Harumio on May 12th. Got a shipping notification on May 20th. The adapter was delivered today, May 24th. So a total of 12 days from order to delivery. Cost was $309. I'll try it soon.

 

[israndy]

I did the same the following day, Friday the 13th, Got a shipping notification late on Sunday May 22nd. The adapter should be delivered Thursday the 26th. So a total of 13 days and $309 as well.

Wonder if I had ordered on the 14th if I'da gotten it delivered on the the 28th? Nah! That wouldn't work, surely someone ordered it on the 1st and didn't get it on the 2nd.

 

[Mike1080i]

But then how long has it been since a new nuclear reactor was placed into commercial service?

Southern Company's Vogtle Unit's 3 and 4 may go online within the next year or two.