Ccs and future connection standards

[LukeT]

Not owning an ev yet I haven't got around all the different standards and where they're going and I haven't seen a resource online that makes it all clear to me. It sounds like things are changing with the other big players and the Model 3 using CCS, but the MS/X aren't compatible with it and no adapter exists. And it looks too big to be retrofittable. Then there's the cumbersome Chademo adapter that it looks like it would be nice not to need to buy and carry around.

I would imagine I'll charge with superchargers or at home very nearly all the time but the small minority of times that doesn't work, I don't want to be caught short. And supercharger share of total charging infrastructure will reduce over time. And I especially would want my other half to have what she needs to stop at any charger rather than feeling inconvenienced by what is more my choice of car than hers.

Is the Chademo something nearly everyone buys? Is it losing share to other options?

It sounds like CCS will gain share but an adapter isn't coming. Is this a problem? Is there another way to use these chargers? Do I read it right that soon enough they're likely to form the majority?

 

[henleyregatta]

Everyone's needs and use-cases are different, so don't expect One Answer That Fits All for you.

With that said: 90% of my charging is done at home.9% at a Supercharger. 1% was the one and only time I tried a public L2 charger, abroad, and got my cable locked into a box that needed some friendly locals to help me with. I don't own and have no plans to purchase a Chademo adapter. I am supremely comfortable in my ability to take the car anywhere in the country or, indeed, Europe with the kit I've been provided although I accept this may be misplaced overconfidence.

Sooner or later there will be some way to charge S/X with CCS. There is talk of an official adapter but if it's coming it's coming on Tesla Time.

If this is the critical issue for you, has Sir and Madam considered waiting a few months for a Model 3?

 

[cezdoc]

If you want to see the current state of play regarding CHAdeMO vs CCS charger availability, have a look at zap-map.com or plugshare.com and filter on the connector type. You should see that, at present, they offer virtually identical coverage, in fact older units may only have CHAdeMO and no CCS. It will take a while for this situation to change (the new units in my area have both CCS and CHAdeMO) so personally I don't think lack of CCS on the S/X is a concern. You're more likely to be caught out by not having the right app / RFID card / a broken unit when venturing away from the Supercharger network, but it does vary regionally. I'm in Scotland and the public network here is pretty good.

Personally I think a Type 2 cable should always be in the boot and for emergencies consider a heavy duty extension cable + UMC to allow charging from a domestic 3-pin socket. I've used all of these + CHAdeMO but there are plenty of folk who manage with Supercharger only.

 

[DJP31]

Is the Chademo something nearly everyone buys? Is it losing share to other options?

No, definitely not and yes it will over time. I have used my CHAdeMO on 3 occasions in 30k miles but it was worth it's weight in gold - and they are heavy! I was on wedding duty in the Torquay area and ended up ferrying people around much more than was planned. The GeniePoint BP (of all places) in Paignton came to the rescue. A couple of other occasions I used Ecotricity points when the 2 stalls at Norton Park in Winchester were continually rammed. That would be less of an issue now that Fleet and LIphook are open, but there are other SuC blackspots, the South West, East Anglia and Scotland spring to mind.

CCS have won the European standard battle over the Japanese CHAdeMo, and as noted above Tesla have said an adapter will be available "soon". There was a sneaky pic of one a couple of weeks ago and it's a fraction of the size of the CHAdeMo.

Personally I think a Type 2 cable should always be in the boot and for emergencies consider a heavy duty extension cable + UMC to allow charging from a domestic 3-pin socket.

This is also very good advice, and I've used the Type 2 cable on a number of occasions at destinations. I've never "had" to though, and never used the UMC (other than to test) or the heavy duty extension, all of which live in the car with the CHAdeMO in the "coffin/wine cellar" boot recess.

And I especially would want my other half to have what she needs to stop at any charger rather than feeling inconvenienced by what is more my choice of car than hers.

A CHAdeMo might be useful (I view mine as an insurance policy as much as anything) but they are clunky and every 3rd party charger is a challenge to use compared to the beautiful simplicity of a SuC. Unless she is a willing participant in the EV adventure I think I'd try and make sure her journey could be completed with nothing other than a SuC stop

 

[LukeT]

If this is the critical issue for you, has Sir and Madam considered waiting a few months for a Model 3?

I don't think this is a critical issue for me but it isn't altogether clear to me so far. My charging breakdown is likely to be pretty much same as yours I imagine. I do lots of 200 mile journeys but with charging at either end and very few journeys longer than that. So from what I know at this point I don't think this affects my buying decision, but it is something I should educate myself on and I'm not there yet. Non ev owners like me generally don't even know what the sockets look like and charging infrastructure seems to be a big area for growth and change over the next couple of years.

 

[LukeT]

If you want to see the current state of play regarding CHAdeMO vs CCS charger availability, have a look at zap-map.com or plugshare.com and filter on the connector type. You should see that, at present, they offer virtually identical coverage, in fact older units may only have CHAdeMO and no CCS. It will take a while for this situation to change (the new units in my area have both CCS and CHAdeMO) so personally I don't think lack of CCS on the S/X is a concern. You're more likely to be caught out by not having the right app / RFID card / a broken unit when venturing away from the Supercharger network, but it does vary regionally. I'm in Scotland and the public network here is pretty good.

Personally I think a Type 2 cable should always be in the boot and for emergencies consider a heavy duty extension cable + UMC to allow charging from a domestic 3-pin socket. I've used all of these + CHAdeMO but there are plenty of folk who manage with Supercharger only.

So CHAdeMO and CCS are used at the same locations generally? Therefore in the longer term a CCS adapter is likely to be all one needs to carry (on top of the UMC and type 2 which I think come as standard and everyone carries with them)? So new buyers might not buy a CHAdeMO on the expectation that a CCS adapter is imminent, or they might buy the CHAdeMO as an insurance policy and not need the CCS adapter for a few years.

ANd I understand the type 2 is just for some slower charging locations - so fairly common locations and the cable comes with the car or is cheap anyway - but less useful?

Sorry for my ignorance. For some reason this should-be-simple subject is as clear as mud to me.

 

[henleyregatta]

I don't think this is a critical issue for me but it isn't altogether clear to me so far. My charging breakdown is likely to be pretty much same as yours I imagine. I do lots of 200 mile journeys but with charging at either end and very few journeys longer than that. So from what I know at this point I don't think this affects my buying decision, but it is something I should educate myself on and I'm not there yet. Non ev owners like me generally don't even know what the sockets look like and charging infrastructure seems to be a big area for growth and change over the next couple of years.

Apologies if what's written isn't helpful or comes across as flippant. 18 months ago I was in the same boat as you. The most stressed I got about it was the couple of weeks prior to delivery. Range Anxiety is a thing!

The one thing you can bear in mind about owning specifically a Tesla Battery EV is that whichever model / size you go for, you've got at least 200 miles of real-world range on a full charge, and if you start from anywhere in the country (possibly excluding the northern Scottish Highlands) with over a 50% charge, you're almost certainly in range of a SuperCharger.

Everything beyond this - all the good advice in the thread about Type-2 cable, UMCs and a good quality extension cable, Chademo Adapters and possible future CCS adapters - falls, for the privileged Tesla Driver, into the bucket of "Insurance Policy" rather than "Requirement". That's not something that can be said of other BEVs like Leafs, i3s, iPaces and eTrons and the like, but that's part of what you're paying the premium price for.

(Having said that: You really, really want to be able to charge it up at home. I'm not sure any BEV is right for you right now if home charging isn't an option)

EDIT: And since you were asking: Model S / X should come with a UMC (with 3-pin UK plug and a 16A "Commando" adapter), and a Type-2 cable. Model-3 will have the UMC but no idea what else it will/won't come with.

EDIT2: The Type-2 cable can be used in any compatible charger. The one time I've used it so far it gave me 24A, 3-phase or a ~50 miles per hour charge rate, which turns out to be the limit of the car's onboard charger. That's twice as fast as the 32A 1-phase HPWC I use at home.

 

[cezdoc]

So CHAdeMO and CCS are used at the same locations generally? Therefore in the longer term a CCS adapter is likely to be all one needs to carry (on top of the UMC and type 2 which I think come as standard and everyone carries with them)? So new buyers might not buy a CHAdeMO on the expectation that a CCS adapter is imminent, or they might buy the CHAdeMO as an insurance policy and not need the CCS adapter for a few years.

ANd I understand the type 2 is just for some slower charging locations - so fairly common locations and the cable comes with the car or is cheap anyway - but less useful?

Sorry for my ignorance. For some reason this should-be-simple subject is as clear as mud to me.

No problem, we were all in the same boat not so long ago! Yes, in essence your summary is right.

The UMC and Type 2 should come with all new cars but there have been periods in the past when either was an optional extra (I paid for my Type 2) so worth checking, especially if buying second hand. The CHAdeMO adapter is always an extra.
Type 2 is for AC charging, the one supplied with Teslas is 3-phase and on newer models will generally charge at up to 16.5 kW, which equates to about 50 miles of range per hour. This is needed for "untethered" chargers, i.e. charge points which are just a socket with no cable, and is pretty much a universal standard socket. The devil is in the detail though, as charge rates can vary from 3 kW (same as a 3 pin, about 6 mph) up to 22 kW (faster than most Teslas can take excepting some earliy Model Ss with a dual charger options) depending on the charger power.

The thing I like about Type 2 is you can plug in the car and go off for a couple of hours: there's no expectation for you to wait with the car while charging, so it's ideal for a lunchbreak or shopping trip. Rapid chargers generally don't let you charge for more than an hour and in busy locations it's polite to limit it to 30 minutes and not leave the car for too long. But they do get you charged up quicker.

Most newer rapid charge units have 2 or 3 cables: CCS and CHAdeMO plus a rapid AC (44 kW) which is really only fully useable by Zoes although you can plug it into a Tesla and get the same rate as using a Type 2 cable. Frowned upon but useful in an emergency, and not a problem if a Zoe turns up and you let them on I guess! So CCS and CHAdeMO are available jointly in most locations.

In terms of buying a CHAdeMO today there are a few unknowns
- will you travel in areas where it's useful (or would you like a rapid-charge "insurance policy")?
- will a CCS adapter be made available for existing Model S/X cars? (Tesla say they will provide one but not all their promises come true, and it's anyone's guess how long it will take to appear)
- will CHAdeMO chargers disappear? (it will be years before the current network of chargers is retired IMO, they are still being added at the moment)
- will a new version of the S/X appear with a CCS socket? (again who knows - probably in the next year or so, but it could be longer)
It's pricey but currently has resale value. It is currently the only way to rapid charge a Model S/X outside the Supercharger network (at rates of up to 50 kW, about 160 mph)

Some useful guides from the Tesla Owner's UK Group:
Charging away from home basics
Charging Cables and Adapters
As you have noted it appears there will be a move from CHAdeMO to CCS in Europe and the above guides have not yet been updated to reflect that. I think it will be years before this becomes an important consideration though.

 

[LukeT]

I live in the south west, so a week in Cornwall, which is a supercharger desert, would require an alternative. But I don't have one planned and otherwise I think I'd be able to rely on them for the little away from home/work charging I'd be doing. So it seems to me like the practical answer for now is to roll with that, get home and work charging fitted before I get a car and just carry type 2 and slow UMC charging to start with. Then either the CCS adapter will come out or I'll plan a trip that looks less reliable before it does, and so buy a chademo.

 

[reliable993]

I understand that most CCS outlets in the UK are 'slow' lower and power compared to those available in Mainland Europe.
Hopefully this will change over time.

 

[.jg.]

So CHAdeMO and CCS are used at the same locations generally? Therefore in the longer term a CCS adapter is likely to be all one needs to carry (on top of the UMC and type 2 which I think come as standard and everyone carries with them)? So new buyers might not buy a CHAdeMO on the expectation that a CCS adapter is imminent, or they might buy the CHAdeMO as an insurance policy and not need the CCS adapter for a few years.

I don't have a CHadeMO adaptor and have no plans to get one. [I could rent one through the Tesla Owners UK Group]. I would get a CCS adaptor, when they arrive, assuming they are no stupidly expensive.

ANd I understand the type 2 is just for some slower charging locations - so fairly common locations and the cable comes with the car or is cheap anyway - but less useful?

I have driven to the south of France and back twice and regularly drive to and from London. I have yet to use my Type 2 cable but I think it is important to have in the car, as it gives access to many public chargers. I have used Tesla destination chargers a few times and I used my UMC with a Schuko adaptor a couple of times, at hotels in France. Most of the time, I charge at home and use Superchargers for long trips.

Sorry for my ignorance. For some reason this should-be-simple subject is as clear as mud to me.

A fair few owners only ask these sort of questions after they have a Tesla!

 

[.jg.]

I live in the south west, so a week in Cornwall, which is a supercharger desert, would require an alternative. But I don't have one planned and otherwise I think I'd be able to rely on them for the little away from home/work charging I'd be doing.

You have probably found Tesla's map, which can show superchargers and destination chargers. There is a supercharger at Lifton but there are a few destination chargers in Cornwall - whilst many are "for customers only", some are available to the public and some hotels will let you use their destination charger if you have lunch in their restaurant.

So it seems to me like the practical answer for now is to roll with that, get home and work charging fitted before I get a car and just carry type 2 and slow UMC charging to start with. Then either the CCS adapter will come out or I'll plan a trip that looks less reliable before it does, and so buy a chademo.

That sounds like a good plan. Many people just use the UMC with a 13A plug adaptor for a while, until they have home charging sorted out - even at 6 mph charging, an overnight charge can give you 50 - 60 extra miles of range. You may find A Better Routeplanner useful. You can use it to plan trips with mutiple waypoints, using specific chargers, etc.

 

[boywonder]

I've just returned from a week's stay in St Ives, Cornwall. The last Supercharger is at Lifton about 80 miles ENE of Lands End, so you're pretty much limited to to the public network unless you happen to be staying somewhere with a 13A supply (for your UMC) or a Tesla Destination charger.

We were lucky enough to be 2 minutes from a hotel with a Tesla Destination charger which they were kind enough to allow us to use. I took three 120+ mile top ups (approx 3 hours) over the course of a week. The charger bay was busy though; it was ether ICE'd or charging another Tesla.

Without access to the Tesla network in places like the South West and Scotland (for example), I'd say a Chademo adapter is a must; giving you around 120 miles in an hour of charging. I have one in my boot; use it rarely but it generally saves my life when I need it.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Unless she is a willing participant in the EV adventure I think I'd try and make sure her journey could be completed with nothing other than a SuC stop

My wife is similar. Out of pure stupidity every time we drove together I got out and did the Supercharger plug-in by myself. So the first time she needed to do it (on a trip which also required a CHAdeMO charge) she had absolutely no previous experience. She coped fine (but I had to remote start the CHAdeMO from MY phone as she didn't have the appropriate APP for that Charger Vendor on her phone ...)

So suggest getting your wife to do it with you before she needs to do it solo.

When my wife takes the car on business trips she won't go out of range. Too much hassle to charge when on a time deadline. I have never resorted to ICE on business trips yet, and we absolutely take it everywhere for recreational trips - I figure out a way to charge ... somehow. Point of principle, and all that

So CHAdeMO and CCS are used at the same locations generally?

Yes, CHAdeMO likely to be faster though (currently)

the UMC and type 2 which I think come as standard and everyone carries with them

Some people use UMC as the home charger "lead". I favour a tethered lead, so that I have UMC in the car for emergencies (and I don't wear it out using it as the daily-lead).

or they might buy the CHAdeMO as an insurance policy and not need the CCS adapter for a few years

CHAdeMO firmware may prove incompatible at some locations (make sure Tesla update firmware whenever you have the car in for service), and getting it to "lock on" can be a hassle. Its chunky too, my wife finds it a struggle.

My CHAdeMO adaptor has been used twice in 3 years, and that was on separate occasions at the same location.

That was in York where I was staying for the night and is a good example of where a journey has Supercharger, but its the running-around-at-destination, and then getting back to Supercharger, that is "too tight".

Going up the A1 Grantham-York-Grantham is doable, just, and if too tight I can detour to (nearer) Woodall Supercharger on the way back ... but if there is running around in York, or bad weather, that all gets too tight. Type-2 would do me (if shopping / whatever), and a 13AMP socket in the car park overnight top-up might do also. On the occasion that my Wife used it weather was atrocious, and she had to come back cross country [for a way-point] to Grantham, so Woodall was not an option. She left York charged to 100% at CHAdeMO and given the weather uncertainty was still reasonably tight getting to Grantham

Instead of my normal Grantham stop she detoured, outbound, to Woodall to use Supercharger nearest to destination

Left Cambridge temperature 10C @ 100%, to Woodall 391 Wh/mi, arrived 47% charged to 90%
Woodall 4.5C to York 395 Wh/mi, arrive 68%
Some running around, temperature falling, snowing. Overnight stop, cold soaked battery
CHAdeMO charge from 51% to 100% (took 2 hours) Note: CHAdeMO in York is at the Designer Outlet, the Leccy cost me almost nothing ...
Temperature -1C, snow, two legs 470 wH/mi and 450 WH/mi, average speed 50 MPH Arrived Grantham 35%

[Type-2] cable comes with the car or is cheap anyway

O/P: I wouldn't have said the Type-2 cable was cheap. relative to other cables maybe, but its still a chunk of change.

there have been periods in the past when either was an optional extra (I paid for my Type 2)

Yup, I also paid for my Type-2. Definitely need one.

Rapid chargers generally don't let you charge for more than an hour and in busy locations it's polite to limit it to 30 minutes and not leave the car for too long

O/P: Note that at Supercharger there is a "parking charge" if you stay connected after the charging finishes. I think its dependent on if the site is full though. You get notification on your phone 5 minutes or so before charging completes.

a week in Cornwall, which is a supercharger desert, would require an alternative.

Range is only an issue when you don't have enough, Natch. So if running around locally, in Cornwall, then using 13 AMP plug at 5MPH for, say, 12 hours overnight is still 60 miles a day running-around range, so that might do.

I understand that most CCS outlets in the UK are 'slow' lower and power compared to those available in Mainland Europe.

I'd describe that a bit differently. Both UK and EU have widespread slow CCS. So if you had CCS port you could charge "anywhere", albeit slowly. There is fast CCS being rolled out across EU (in particular by Ionity), and MOST of that has/is happening in EU and not UK ... yet.

I have yet to use my Type 2 cable

I use mine whenever there is convenient Type-2 charging nearby. I have never had to, but getting 22 MPH during a 2 or 3 hours stop gives me more options for where to then find a Supercharger - typically skipping the nearest one, which I would use if Type-2 not available. In reality: on at least 50% of occasions, probably more, attempting a Type-2 charge hasn't worked. I did not have the right APP; the 3rd party stall(s) was bust; I had to phone to get connected and, despite telling me that they could, they then failed to achieve that.Typically only a couple of stalls at each site, if occupied likely to be by slow-charging vehicles, so blocked for long time; sometimes all EV stalls ICEd. No ability (that I know of) to see real-time occupancy before arrival. 3rd party charging has been a universally dreadful experience for me.

Supercharger: Plug-in, walk-away. (Actually: Plug-in, check ramps up to 100+ kW; once a year, when the stall is slow, move to another stall ; then walk-away)

I helped a gentleman in a Leaf at Grantham a couple of weeks back. He was clearly circling the car park and kept looking over at the Tesla chargers where I was parked ... I figured he was either thinking he might be able to use them ... or something else. I could see the Ecotricity charger but it wasn't obvious where it was (particularly from his driving viewpoint). I went over to him and he said "I'm looking for Ecotricity but my SatNav is telling me they are where you are parked and I'm pretty sure I can't use a Tesla charger". He was grateful that I could point him in the right direction

 

[LukeT]

Having a look at the Scottish Borders on zapmap the locations there seem to offer type 2 just about everywhere, albeit generally 7 or 22kw, and where there is chademo and CCS at 50kw there's type 2 at 43. So do ccs/chademo offer much more than type 2 even?

 

[tonyj01]

A few answers from me.

1. Tesla are upgrading superchargers to have both Type 2 and CCS outlets. Many pictures online. See Tesla begins Supercharger CCS upgrade ahead of Model 3 rollout in Europe

2. A CCS to Tesla Type 2 converter has also been produced, and no doubt this will become available as a retrofit. Tesla To Offer CCS Adapter For Model S, X In Europe

I'm not worried, CCS rollout seems slow.

In fact charging infrastructure growth in UK seems very slow to me. I have recently been in two medium size towns with zero or no public charging at all.

Tony

 

[WannabeOwner]

So do ccs/chademo offer much more than type 2 even?

In terms of Charge speed?

Type-2 is A/C and limited at the Tesla end, so at a 3-phase Type-2 the car's limit trumps the charger available power.

CCS and CHAdeMO (and Supercharger) is DC. I don't know much about electricity but my understanding is A/C need conversion, going into the car, so the limit is that conversion process, whereas D/C goes straight to battery, so the only limit is "Max for car" (and that is higher for Model-3 battery, and apparently for newest Model-S / X)

Existing CCS is typically 50kW, and 150kW being rolled out along with some 350kW. (But as I have read it that's a bit like CHAdeMO in the sense that a couple of the stalls will have 350kW capable CCS and the rest, at that site, 150kW ... but if some crappy 40kWh battery has plugged in at the 350kW stall, instead of the [unoccupied] 150kW stall, then tough-on-you able to charge at 350kW, its not available.)

Current Supercharger V2 is about 10% (any battery size) per 5 minutes if battery is < 70%, it slows down above that. So ideally Supercharge later in your trip
CHAdeMO is about 10% per 15 minutes - it is faster when battery is more full (I forget exactly, but up to about 95%), so ideally CHAdeMO charge earlier in your trip
Forthcoming Supercharger V3 will be more than 2.5x as fast as V2 (for newer vehicles which can take advantage of it)

Type-2 7kW (below any threshold limit for Tesla, so 22-MPH ), sometimes 22kW but I've never found one yet (I've only used destination chargers)

13 AMP is about 5-6 MPH (and considerable loss of efficiency compared to 7kW and above)

CCS rollout seems slow

I agree. Plenty of stories of teething problems too - for Model-3 but also other makes, like iPace. Not clear if the problem is with car firmware, or charger firmware. Either way, software update will fix it. So much for Standards ...

No such problem with proprietary Tesla Supercharger - everything is under one roof, so easier to resolve any bugs that are encountered.

Tesla are upgrading superchargers to have both Type 2 and CCS outlets

I think Tesla are pretty much DONE with this aren't they? The rollout of modifications at existing Supercharger sites, across EU, seems to have happened incredibly quickly (pretty much all done in what seems like just a couple of month, even in UK where only Model-3 are continental LHD visitors ))

 

[LukeT]

Ah ha. Gotcha. Thank you for all the info. I think I'm about there.

I'd be working on the theory that type 2 is widely available, only required quite rarely and just about quick enough that over lunch I'll get enough in to reach a supercharger. That seems an OK place to be to start with. I think it's only extended stays away from the heart of the country that require going beyond home, work and super charging anyway.

So in terms of accessories, a type 2 cable, UMC and a good extension lead and I might on rare occasions be a bit slow but I won't be stranded.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I'd be working on the theory that type 2 is widely available, only required quite rarely and just about quick enough that over lunch I'll get enough in to reach a supercharger

Spot on. And put much more succinctly than I did

a type 2 cable, UMC and a good extension lead

Yup.

I got my extension lead from Industrial Extension Leads

14m single socket heavy duty 13amp black extension lead

Not beautiful, but its the proper external, tough, insulation etc. I posted some thoughts about extension leads in this thread, and @arg gave me some useful feedback

 

[sweter]

CCS slow? On my lengthy stay in the UK in March I charged on non-Tesla public stations 75% of the time and they were always 50kW (Electricity, Shell and Polar if I remember correctly). Sure, this isn't Supercharger level, but good enough. Usually let me charge from ~20% to 80% within an hour. Currently, in Europe in my home city I only rely on similar charging stations (I'm waiting for Wall Connector to be installed in my garage) and they're always located convenient enough to charge up during lunch or shopping.

In my 2 months of Model 3 ownership I never used any other cable than CCS. OK, sorry, once I charged at my parent's house from 230v socket, but that was pure experiment for fun (or science) rather than actual charging session.

I wouldn't be surprised if later this year updated Model S & X come out with CCS sockets for Europe. IMO that's the obvious thing to do.