CCS Charging options for Model 3

[bro1999]

I was at a lodge in Shenandoah National Park that had a Clipper Creek 40 amp unit as well as a Tesla destination charger. I was surprised at how small the plug of the Tesla station was. There's no trigger or anything though....I guess you just shove it into the receptacle?

 

[gregincal]

Just between us, if there is high power I don't mind bulky. If there is high power the load caring connection should be robust. Anyway, in use the CCS plug is not very inconvenient. I agree that the other standards will gradually yield, although I suspect some of the old ones, almost all L2 and L1, will stick around for decades, just as L2 and L1 do not have even national standards today. Witness Australia, the USA and most larger countries. If there are not national electricity standards for domestic housing for frequency, much less connectors, why should we expect BEV standards to differ?

The load carrying connection on the supercharger connector is just as robust as CCS. It's just that they decided to use it for AC charging as well instead of having redundant smaller connectors for AC charging that aren't even used when doing DC charging.

 

[jbcarioca]

The load carrying connection on the supercharger connector is just as robust as CCS. It's just that they decided to use it for AC charging as well instead of having redundant smaller connectors for AC charging that aren't even used when doing DC charging.

You might care to look at the technical specifications before making that statement.

 

[gregincal]

You might care to look at the technical specifications before making that statement.

It's hard to find specifications, but certainly visually the DC pins on the Tesla connector look to be about the same size as the DC pins on the CCS connector (the bottom part of CCS looks very much like the top part of the Tesla plug, except the pins are on the car instead of the plug). My main point though is that Tesla doesn't have redundant DC and AC pins, since certainly the DC pins are able to handle AC just fine. (This is all for the US plug, I'm less familiar with how Tesla modified the type 2 plug to handle DC.)

 

[Jeff N]

You might care to look at the technical specifications before making that statement.

Have you looked at the specs and made a comparison? If so, I'd be interested in seeing your point-by-point comparison of the power specs and why you think Tesla's connector is less capable than the CCS design.

The only thing I can think of is that Tesla's less bulky design leaves less room for circulating liquid coolant around the charging pins in support of high current charging. Tesla today charges at up to around 370A using better pins than CCS although there are sometimes reports on the forum that handles can get hot and Tesla may be pushing the boundaries a bit. CCS plug specs require coolant to get above 250A and the new standard is set at 350A but apparently might be increased to 400A in the near future.

The real power boost comes from doubling the allowed voltage levels during charging and I'm guessing that Tesla's connector can play that game too.

Transitioning to higher voltage charging will likely be done in most cars at first by adding an additional contactor inside the battery pack to allow it to be configured for 400V when driving or charging at older chargers with a high voltage configuration only used during charging on newer equipment.

 

[Red Sage]

I was at a lodge in Shenandoah National Park that had a Clipper Creek 40 amp unit as well as a Tesla destination charger. I was surprised at how small the plug of the Tesla station was. There's no trigger or anything though....I guess you just shove it into the receptacle?

There is a button on the top of the Tesla handle in the silvery area. You press it and it sends a signal that opens the charger port as you bring the handle near the car. The car locks onto the handle as it is inserted, after communicating with the external charger.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You might care to look at the technical specifications before making that statement.

It's hard to find specifications, but certainly visually the DC pins on the Tesla connector look to be about the same size as the DC pins on the CCS connector (the bottom part of CCS looks very much like the top part of the Tesla plug, except the pins are on the car instead of the plug). My main point though is that Tesla doesn't have redundant DC and AC pins, since certainly the DC pins are able to handle AC just fine. (This is all for the US plug, I'm less familiar with how Tesla modified the type 2 plug to handle DC.)

Have you looked at the specs and made a comparison? If so, I'd be interested in seeing your point-by-point comparison of the power specs and why you think Tesla's connector is less capable than the CCS design.

The only thing I can think of is that Tesla's less bulky design leaves less room for circulating liquid coolant around the charging pins in support of high current charging. Tesla today charges at up to around 370A using better pins than CCS although there are sometimes reports on the forum that handles can get hot and Tesla may be pushing the boundaries a bit. CCS plug specs require coolant to get above 250A and the new standard is set at 350A but apparently might be increased to 400A in the near future.

The real power boost comes from doubling the allowed voltage levels during charging and I'm guessing that Tesla's connector can play that game too.

Transitioning to higher voltage charging will likely be done in most cars at first by adding an additional contactor inside the battery pack to allow it to be configured for 400V when driving or charging at older chargers with a high voltage configuration only used during charging on newer equipment.

The US Tesla power pins are the same as CHAdeMO at 9mm.
Concerns about Tesla to non-Tesla charging adapters

The European Tesla connector, uses the DC-Mid spec by using parallel conductors.

The CCS DC power pins are 8mm (at least this one with only 150A rating).
http://rema-ev.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/CCS-1-Inlet-Datasheet-201604.pdf

 

[jbcarioca]

Have you looked at the specs and made a comparison? If so, I'd be interested in seeing your point-by-point comparison of the power specs and why you think Tesla's connector is less capable than the CCS design.

The only thing I can think of is that Tesla's less bulky design leaves less room for circulating liquid coolant around the charging pins in support of high current charging. Tesla today charges at up to around 370A using better pins than CCS although there are sometimes reports on the forum that handles can get hot and Tesla may be pushing the boundaries a bit. CCS plug specs require coolant to get above 250A and the new standard is set at 350A but apparently might be increased to 400A in the near future.
.

There was only one major point made on this subject that caused my question (for the record, not an assertion. That was that the Tesla US connector compact size limited cooling options that were included in CharIN planning for higher power levels. I do not have supporting documents. In the discussion I recall there being no material problems with Tesla connectors below 325A but heat dissipation would not permit sustained charging above 350A. There was debate about how to get to 500A and above, which required robust cooling for all options. The argument was that CCS had such plans and that Tesla US connectors did not. None had a ready solution to allow battery packs to accept such charging with the cooling and distribution wiring of today's cars. The discussion was recorded in Germany IIRC and was on the CharIN site. I could not find it yesterday as I was looking for it. That is why I asked.

 

[gregincal]

The European Tesla connector, uses the DC-Mid spec by using parallel conductors.

The CCS DC power pins are 8mm (at least this one with only 150A rating).
http://rema-ev.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/CCS-1-Inlet-Datasheet-201604.pdf

Except that the superchargers deliver a lot more than the 140A allowed by DC mid. I believe Tesla modified the physical specifications slightly, but clearly the CCS committee didn't feel DC mid was scaleable enough and Tesla did.

 

[widodh]

Except that the superchargers deliver a lot more than the 140A allowed by DC mid. I believe Tesla modified the physical specifications slightly, but clearly the CCS committee didn't feel DC mid was scaleable enough and Tesla did.

Yes, for now. But we don't know how many Amps/current Tesla can push over these pins for how long.

I doubt if Tesla can handle 350A sustained over a longer period through the connector. I highly doubt it.

That's where CCS with active cooling in the connector and cable comes in.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Except that the superchargers deliver a lot more than the 140A allowed by DC mid. I believe Tesla modified the physical specifications slightly, but clearly the CCS committee didn't feel DC mid was scaleable enough and Tesla did.

Well, Tesla delivered a lot more current than any of the specs offered for the same pin sizes also. I didn't mention the difference given this.

 

[Adm]

In the following press release by ABB on their fast chargers at supermarket chain Lidl, it says Tesla Model 3 can charge with CSS!!

http://www.abb.com/cawp/seitp202/1eec9add8df6fcaac125817000324406.aspx

 

[PaulusdB]

Excellent find, A.

 

[HG Wells]

In the following press release by ABB on their fast chargers at supermarket chain Lidl, it says Tesla Model 3 can charge with CSS!!

ABB fast-charging station for electric vehicles launched at a Lidl store

Why only the model 3 and not S/X?
Extra plug on 3 that we have not seen yet ?
TYPO most likely. Hope its an extra port on the 3.

Would check it out but I loaned out my time machine.

 

[Adm]

Why only the model 3 and not S/X?
Extra plug on 3 that we have not seen yet ?
TYPO most likely. Hope its an extra port on the 3.

Would check it out but I loaned out my time machine.

It's probably in Europe only. The CCS is a combo of the mode 2 Mennekes plug and two extra DC pins.

There is not enough space for a CCS plug in the Model S and X.

 

[FlyingKiwi]

In the following press release by ABB on their fast chargers at supermarket chain Lidl, it says Tesla Model 3 can charge with CSS!!

ABB fast-charging station for electric vehicles launched at a Lidl store

I looked at the leaflet for the charger. http://search-ext.abb.com/library/D...LanguageCode=en&DocumentPartId=&Action=Launch

And the tesla would be AC charging on the type 2 cable (G option) not dc fast charging as far as I can tell.

Edit: ignore the above, i went back and re-read the first link and it quite clear they mean dc fast. Hmmmm.

 

[R.S]

I looked at the leaflet for the charger. http://search-ext.abb.com/library/D...LanguageCode=en&DocumentPartId=&Action=Launch

And the tesla would be AC charging on the type 2 cable (G option) not dc fast charging as far as I can tell.

Quote from the press release:

"ABB‘s charging stations comply with three international charging standards – for DC charging CHAdeMO, which is the fast charging standard of choice for the Kia Soul EV, Citroen, Mitsubishi EVs, Peugots, and Nissan and the Combined Charging Solution (CCS), which is the fast charging standard of choice for Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Daimler, Ford, Fiat Chrysler, General Motors, Porsche, Volkswagen, Volvo and now the new Model 3 Tesla, together with the AC charging standard (Type 2 Standard)."

This seems rather legit, especially since they not only mention the Model 3 but specifically call it out by saying "and now the new Model 3 Tesla". If they only had mentioned Tesla alongside everyone else, it could have been a mistake, because of Tesla being a CCS member, or because they use a special version of the Mennekes plug. But since it's mentioned like that, it seems Tesla just added the DC part of the plug.

Makes sense, too. The supercharger plugs still fit, but the Model 3 can now also use CCS stations. Would be harder to do in the US, though.

 

[Adm]

I looked at the leaflet for the charger. http://search-ext.abb.com/library/D...LanguageCode=en&DocumentPartId=&Action=Launch

And the tesla would be AC charging on the type 2 cable (G option) not dc fast charging as far as I can tell.

There is nothing in the leaflet telling us what charging standard Model 3 would use, or any other car for that matter.

In the text of the press release it is very clear. They may have made a mistake, but on the other hand, it may explain why the charge door is so big.

 

[HG Wells]

Looks like a chadmo adapter .
On web page (original) right side attachments picture #6
http://www04.abb.com/global/seitp/seitp202.nsf/0/f9608a4324430e76c125816f00336018/$file/DSC_2653.jpg

Soros just returned my time machine. He was trying to keep some ones grand parents from meeting. Did not work out. It never does.

 

[Adm]

Looks like a chadmo adapter .
On web page (original) right side attachments picture #6
http://www04.abb.com/global/seitp/seitp202.nsf/0/f9608a4324430e76c125816f00336018/$file/DSC_2653.jpg

Soros just returned my time machine. He was trying to keep some ones grand parents from meeting. Did not work out. It never does.

That picture shows a Model X.